Do fantasy RPGs have to be fantasical?

[DragonLancer]

This is a topic that came to mind a few nights ago and I would like to see other people's thoughts and opinions. I'll be referencing D&D 3.X and Pathfinder mainly but it can apply to any fantasy RPG.

When I started with basic (red box) D&D and 1st edition AD&D my friends and I never saw the world/s we used as overly fantastical. Sure, there were wizards and monsters, but otherwise they looked and felt like what we would expect from the medieval of our own world. Same thing with 2nd edition AD&D. Even the artwork, while not historically correct didn't feel out of place for us.

Then when 3.0 was released we noticed that all the artwork had become what became known as "dungeonpunk". The whole look of D&D and it's worlds had changed. More than that though seemed to be the rise of the fantastical throughout everything. Eberron was a perfect example of that being a world built around the concept of what would a world with the power level of D&D look like. That setting never worked for me because of that.
I've never been a fan of magic as technology. I've played games where there were continual light globes as street lamps (Waterdeep had this IIRC). Other games have had murders solved because the local watch brought a priest from the temples to cast speak with dead or similar magics. Can you have a non-magical plague strike somewhere when cure disease so such a low level and thus common spell? Such concepts have begun to spoil my sense of immersion in fantasy roleplaying. It makes such games too fantastical.

The same thing goes with magical items. They just seem far too common in games these days. Not just every watch captain or whoever owning magical armour and/or weapons, but concepts such as flying ships or magical seige weapons. Why does a merchant need a caravan with horses and guards when he can buy bags of holding to keep his goods in?

I guess as I get older I am finding myself wanting to run games that go back to the classic medieval look and feel. Which is what I plan to do in my next Pathfinder campaign. I want to keep the monsters, the spellcasters and such, but not go the route that fantasy gaming seems to have done.

If you've got this far thank you for reading (I do ramble, sorry). My question is do you think that fantasy roleplaying (D&D and Pathfinder specifically) has to be fantastical. If so why, if not, what are you reasons?

Thank you.

 

[DMH]

I am the exact opposite. If I wanted to play historical games, then I would look for those. To me low fantasy is weird- people will try to use magic in every way possible (even if it was tainted or otherwise dangerous).

Something you might want to keep in mind is cost. The merchant who wants the bags of holding simply can not afford them. If you want less magic items, then make them more expensive (or harder to make).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Fantasy elements are what make a fantasy world. Everyone has different preferences for how much the fantastical elements intrude upon the mundane parts of the world.

The low magic/high magic debate has been going on forever. As far as D&D is concerned the dial can be set at various levels depending on the campaign desired. Spellcasters, magical items, and even monsters can be made more rare to suit a particular game.

The Lankhmar supplement for AD&D is a good example. The rules of play were changed to fit the game world and give it a unique flavor.

Really, the level of the fantastic in a given campaign is whatever you and your players prefer.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

The short answer is: No. I don't think fantasy worlds need to be like the standard DnD world as suggested in the rule books. (3rd ed rules books and on from there. Earlier versions had a slightly different take on this I think.)

Personally I prefer a low fantasy style game. Magic is rare an dlife is dangerous (and possible short.) No ye olde magic shoppes. No resurrection type magic. I like my magic to be rare and, well, magical. In fact I prefer a game in which magic is down right dangerous to the health of the user. I don't like the magic as technology style of fantasy world; if I want to play a game set in a pulp early 20th century I'll play HERO Pulp Adventures. Actually I'd prefer to play HERO System for fantasy as well. The only issue with that is having to come up with my own bloody magic system. Of course I could run a fantasy game without magic.

Sounds like you and your friends have drifted towards the low fantasy end of the spectrum, assuming you weren't already there. Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy I say.

Cheers.

 

[Cor Azer]

Both low and high magic have their place in the gaming world, and while some RPGs may lean more one way than the other, neither is inherently better.

Strictly a taste thing.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Sure, Eberron was new for 3E, but other settings continued on from previous editions - Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, DragonLance, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc.

Forgotten Realms has always been pretty high magic going back to its origin - Elminster & all his allies, Force Grey, the Lords of Waterdeep, the Underdark and Undermountain, the 7 Sisters, etc.

Dark Sun has always been pretty low magic, and remains that way even in 4E.

I've enjoyed a lot of the artwork going back to the early days of D&D, but looking back at it now, some of the old art seems really tired and dated, even simplistic in many places. (the cover of the 1E Monster Manual) I think 3E/3.5E at least made an effort to be more inclusive with their artwork - not every woman is a voluptuous scantily clad damsel in distress.

I personally enjoy a lower magic game, but I also realize that my tastes are not what everybody in my group likes, so I have to adapt to their tastes as well. And, despite my having some older gamers in my group, several of them did not play 1E or 2E D&D. So, to them, 3E and 4E are the "norm" for D&D.

 

[amerigoV]

If you've got this far thank you for reading (I do ramble, sorry). My question is do you think that fantasy roleplaying (D&D and Pathfinder specifically) has to be fantastical. If so why, if not, what are you reasons?

Thank you.

I think you have to separate fantasy roleplaying from D&D. Its my opinion that D&D is its own genre. While there is a lot of room for interpretation, I think many high fantasy elements come to mind when someones says "you want to play some D&D?"

As an example, if someone says "hey, do you want to play D&D but strip out wizards (except as villans), clerical magic, and magic items are rare"? most people will go running and screaming. But if you say "do you want to play Conan/Hyboria?" they have a much different reaction (it may still be no, but I bet more people would be open to it).

I find that using another system has broken the players expectation and allows me to define the worlds without the D&D bias (which is to high fantasy elements).

But that is my opinion. YMMV.

 

[Alzrius]

My question is do you think that fantasy roleplaying (D&D and Pathfinder specifically) has to be fantastical. If so why, if not, what are you reasons?

It doesn't have to be, but that's clearly where it wants to go, and won't go elsewhere without some degree of alteration.

Part of the internal logic and consistency that people expect from game worlds is that anything that can be used with consistent regularity, without personal risk, and can be taught to others - e.g. magic - will become ubiquitous, and will see varied applications in everyday life.

If you want to change that, you need to change the underlying assumptions about magic, and that means changing the rules for magic.

 

[kitsune9]

I like having uber fantasy in my campaign like Eberron, FR, and Iron Kingdoms (my favorite in which steampunk and magic is works side-by-side).

I can see where some gamers want magic, but don't want gonzo to go with it. Sometimes, I get a little tired of it too, but if magic is easy, accessible, limitless, then it's only logical that societies would be built around the concept of magic-as-technology. Matter of fact such societies would accelerate at a rate greater than our technological advancement and would either take to the stars (or planes of existence) or wipe themselves out.

There's some ways to deal with this in your campaign in order to have fantastical magic, but keep it from pushing society forward. Here's been my thoughts and discussions in the past:

1. Make the barrier of entry high. In 3.x, if you have a wizard or sorcerer with their stat of at least 11, they could cast 1st level spells. Raise this. Also as a campaign flavor, make the level of training and development to be many years. For example, for someone to learn to cast spells as a wizard, they must spend at least 10-15 years of continuous study to cast their spells. For spontaneous casters, their ability doesn't manifest themselves until they reach a certain age. If the average lifespan of a human in medieval times is 45 - 50 then having a character who starts out at 30 as a 1st level caster will more than likely not live long enough to retire and then focus on magic research.

2. Make magic unpredictable, uncontrollable, or dangerous. Look at nuclear technology. If used effectively, it can provide incredible power to millions of people in a region. However, shoddy construction, a mistake at the control panels, a faulty heat-exchange valve and so on can create a disaster to kill hundreds or thousands and give cancer and radiation poisoning to twice as many. Does the risk outweigh the good? Magic can be unpredictable, or uncontrollable, or inherently dangerous to use. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has this which greatly curtails magic use.

3. Eliminate the magic economy. Part of any rise of a society is creating systems of efficiency. Part of creating that efficiency is having a stable system of weights and measures in which you can value goods to be traded within your society and to others. However, if you cannot price something, then despite its benefits, it will be of little use to society. "Money is what makes the world go round" is an old adage that is very apt here. Your players may find +1 longswords all over the place in dungeons, ruins, and swamps, but if merchants can't price them or have no means of independently verifying their value, you won't have people creating them and you won't have people trading in them.

4. Make magic a scarce commodity. Magic seems to come from "someplace" so that anyone with an ability score high enough and some material components that are mostly cheap can keep casting spells every day until they die. However, what if there was a finite supply of magic in the world and once it was used up, then magic would be gone forever? For your campaign purposes, you wouldn't have a system to track the finite supply of magic in the world, but societies that know this truth would greatly curtail on who can and cannot use magic. Unregistered use of magic would be dealt with harshly in order to keep it from running out. This would be part of the logic of why there are no continual light lamps and magic trains.

5. There is no such thing as permanent magic. Sure, you can cast permanency on something, but really it just means a long time because after several years or so, the magic wanes and then fades away. And the more costly to make "permanent" magic, the less likely that casters will use it. Look at car batteries for electric vehicles. Why isn't everyone driving a hybrid or an electric vehicle? The batteries are expensive, have serious range limitations, and wear out after 70,000 miles and need to be replaced. Until we have a breakthrough on these limitations that increases the efficiency by tenfold, the adoption of this technology will be slow. Make magic the same way, but have no breakthrough available. So this could be an explanation that society places little value on permanent magic because it's of little practical use. Think of that magic train in Eberron that is powered by elementals. What if the rituals involved in capturing and binding the elemental must be done every 10 miles or 20 miles for the train to operate? Guess what, no more trains. Too impractical.

Other posters can come up with additional ideas. This list is by no means exhaustive.

 

[kitsune9]

I like having uber fantasy in my campaign like Eberron, FR, and Iron Kingdoms (my favorite in which steampunk and magic is works side-by-side).

I can see where some gamers want magic, but don't want gonzo to go with it. Sometimes, I get a little tired of it too, but if magic is easy, accessible, limitless, then it's only logical that societies would be built around the concept of magic-as-technology. Matter of fact such societies would accelerate at a rate greater than our technological advancement and would either take to the stars (or planes of existence) or wipe themselves out.

There's some ways to deal with this in your campaign in order to have fantastical magic, but keep it from pushing society forward. Here's been my thoughts and discussions in the past:

1. Make the barrier of entry high. In 3.x, if you have a wizard or sorcerer with their stat of at least 11, they could cast 1st level spells. Raise this. Also as a campaign flavor, make the level of training and development to be many years. For example, for someone to learn to cast spells as a wizard, they must spend at least 10-15 years of continuous study to cast their spells. For spontaneous casters, their ability doesn't manifest themselves until they reach a certain age. If the average lifespan of a human in medieval times is 45 - 50 then having a character who starts out at 30 as a 1st level caster will more than likely not live long enough to retire and then focus on magic research.

2. Make magic unpredictable, uncontrollable, or dangerous. Look at nuclear technology. If used effectively, it can provide incredible power to millions of people in a region. However, shoddy construction, a mistake at the control panels, a faulty heat-exchange valve and so on can create a disaster to kill hundreds or thousands and give cancer and radiation poisoning to twice as many. Does the risk outweigh the good? Magic can be unpredictable, or uncontrollable, or inherently dangerous to use. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has this which greatly curtails magic use.

3. Eliminate the magic economy. Part of any rise of a society is creating systems of efficiency. Part of creating that efficiency is having a stable system of weights and measures in which you can value goods to be traded within your society and to others. However, if you cannot price something, then despite its benefits, it will be of little use to society. "Money is what makes the world go round" is an old adage that is very apt here. Your players may find +1 longswords all over the place in dungeons, ruins, and swamps, but if merchants can't price them or have no means of independently verifying their value, you won't have people creating them and you won't have people trading in them.

4. Make magic a scarce commodity. Magic seems to come from "someplace" so that anyone with an ability score high enough and some material components that are mostly cheap can keep casting spells every day until they die. However, what if there was a finite supply of magic in the world and once it was used up, then magic would be gone forever? For your campaign purposes, you wouldn't have a system to track the finite supply of magic in the world, but societies that know this truth would greatly curtail on who can and cannot use magic. Unregistered use of magic would be dealt with harshly in order to keep it from running out. This would be part of the logic of why there are no continual light lamps and magic trains.

5. There is no such thing as permanent magic. Sure, you can cast permanency on something, but really it just means a long time because after several years or so, the magic wanes and then fades away. And the more costly to make "permanent" magic, the less likely that casters will use it. Look at car batteries for electric vehicles. Why isn't everyone driving a hybrid or an electric vehicle? The batteries are expensive, have serious range limitations, and wear out after 70,000 miles and need to be replaced. Until we have a breakthrough on these limitations that increases the efficiency by tenfold, the adoption of this technology will be slow. Make magic the same way, but have no breakthrough available. So this could be an explanation that society places little value on permanent magic because it's of little practical use. Think of that magic train in Eberron that is powered by elementals. What if the rituals involved in capturing and binding the elemental must be done every 10 miles or 20 miles for the train to operate? Guess what, no more trains. Too impractical.

Other posters can come up with additional ideas. This list is by no means exhaustive.