Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Doug McCrae]

*Every* magic item can have a story and be more than its plusses.

Should it though? Surely that would only work in a low magic game, otherwise you'd have a heck of a lot of backstory to write.

 

[Reynard]

Should it though? Surely that would only work in a low magic game, otherwise you'd have a heck of a lot of backstory to write.

Why not? I mean, it isn't a +1 Sword. it is Grimfang, blade of the Goblin King of Old, found beneath the offal of a wyrm that long ago decided to make the goblins' warren its lair. It has been lost for hundreds of years, and now sits in the hands of the intrepid adventurers thatn defeated the foul dragon. It happens to have a+1 enhancement bonus.

That took about 7 seconds. I am sure more than a few people can pull a couple adventure ideas out of that description, to boot.

 

[Numion]

Then again, there aren't many people that argue that something was up to DM Fiat in one thread, argue the same thing is utterly predictable in another thread, and fail to see where their so-called logic leads one to believe that they are arguing simply to be contrary (or are, themselves, irrational).

A system can be predictable - the DM using it doesn't have to. Rules and applying them are two different things. DM fiat exists always in greater or lesser quantities.

That's the basis for many many D&D adventures, for example. The DM decides that there's some world destroying magic coming about, say, someone is summoning an evil god. There's no spells for that in the system, yet I've run such an adventure (campaign, really).

That doesn't affect squat as to whether the D&D magic system, as written, was unpredictable or not. The bread and butter of the system, the spell lists and rules, magic item lists and rules, are very predictable in both editions. That makes the whole system quite predictable.

There are exceptions, and you seem to put a lot of weight on those exceptions, but I consider them just that - exceptions. They're pretty rare too, so their effect on gameplay is minor. A telling sign is that one your strongest examples is the potion miscability table. How often is that going to happen, given that players can choose to ignore it completely by not drinking two potions at the same time?

Oh, and let me save you the trouble: bizarrobizarrobizarrolalalalaimnotlisteningtoyourargumentsfrombizarroworld

 

[Doug McCrae]

There just doesn't seem much point to doing a big story behind a +1 sword. The effect of the item is too weak to justify it. If you did, you may as well do the same for a masterwork sword. Or a normal one. After all, any item could've had a famous owner or owners and much history.

If you're going to do that it would seem more appropriate to have a game where magic is rare but powerful when it does occur. No magic swords except +5 vorpals or artefacts. Those sorts of items are truly terrifying, they're like nuclear weapons, not sniper rifles.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Originally Posted by Doug McCrae
Should it though? Surely that would only work in a low magic game, otherwise you'd have a heck of a lot of backstory to write.

Why not? I mean, it isn't a +1 Sword. it is Grimfang, blade of the Goblin King of Old, found beneath the offal of a wyrm that long ago decided to make the goblins' warren its lair. It has been lost for hundreds of years, and now sits in the hands of the intrepid adventurers thatn defeated the foul dragon. It happens to have a+1 enhancement bonus.

How many different stories can you come up with? How many times can famous warrior X kill villain Y and then disappear when they tried to do Z thousands of years ago. Eventually those stories get old and mundane in-and-of themselves.

The next questions is 'how long before they get a +2 weapon?' What is the point of having a backstory to a weapon they will only be using for five sessions?

Did you ever play the Baulder's Gate games? If so, how long before you stopped reading the backstories to all of the magic weapons? To me, they got old - really fast.

 

[S'mon]

Re +1 swords - I do "This is the Wolf Sword, fashioned by the Wizard Lord Faolan for his chief of guards" or even just "This was forged by the dwarves" or "This was crafted by the master sorcerer-smiths of the Old Imarran Empire".

 

[Raven Crowking]

See, that's part of the problem though, because in this thread I've repeatedly asked about other items, and been told that all things are mysterious and special.


Even Gauntlets of Ogre power!

Sure, the gauntlets can be mysterious. That doesn't mean that they have to be. I think the quote you are referring to had more to do with individual preference than an absolute statement that GoOP must be myseriously imbued with mystery-ness. As I recall, it was an IF/THEN statement, as in "IF GoOP are not special in your game, THEN I don't want to play in your game." Not the same thing as saying they must be special in your game.

The first part is in quotes, but it doesn't have attribution, so I'm not sure who made that assertion.

It is in quotes (rather than a QUOTE tag) to differentiate it from the rest of the text as a seperate phrase. However, I am sure I could pull several equivilent quotes from this thread.

I don't think that results in Mystery though, or Wonder, in regard to even the vast majority of items. I specifically disclaim that the rules ever made anything more mysterious or wondrous in the editions from my first box of D&D up to the latest books. The random factor was a much different thing than adding an air of story and mystery to an object.

I agree with you that story (and unique bennies/non-stat-related atmosphere bits) adds more to an item than random rolls. OTOH, "randomness" and "predictability" are (as the words are normally used) opposites, and I brought up the random items in that context.

It's easy to focus on Stormbringer and ignore that Elric's ancestral armor. He probably also had a real nice set of enchanted boots and such... not everything is important.

Don't forget his Muffler of Warmth, either.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

the things about magic items is that their mechanical effects are factored into the assumed baseline for character power at certain levels. This is what makes the plethora of magic items so crucial if you're running a fairly standard campaign, not being able to match the assumed baseline hurts the characters thus players want to at least hit the baseline.

If you want magic ITEMS to be special, you need to divorce the mechanical effects of the item from the item itself. Incorporate the assumed baseline bonus normally seen through items into character progression as an inherent effect, then allow a reasonable discretionary amount of customizable magical doo-hickies to that. Now the only sort of actual magic items you have left are the expendable stuff casters will want to make and artifacts. Suddenly the proliferation of magic items ends, the characters are inherently magical and mostly they can just use whatever, its only magical for them. When they encounter an item that is in and of itself inherently magical it will be more interesting because magic items are themselves less common and more unique.

 

[jensun]

Don't forget his Muffler of Warmth, either.

At the risk of throwing the thread off on a bit of a tangent the Elric universe, much like Tolkien, was one with little in the way of magical gear. I find a suggestion that Elric was wearing magic boots but Moorcock never bothered to mention them about as credible as saying Frodo was packing some Gloves of Dex.

As far as the original post goes, Magic Shops, in whatever form they might take, may or may not be appropriate for your particular game.

D&D, and especially the earlier versions, doesnt have an overriding spirit. Each game creates its own and magic shops will appear or not depending on that.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Sure, the gauntlets can be mysterious. That doesn't mean that they have to be. I think the quote you are referring to had more to do with individual preference than an absolute statement that GoOP must be myseriously imbued with mystery-ness. As I recall, it was an IF/THEN statement, as in "IF GoOP are not special in your game, THEN I don't want to play in your game." Not the same thing as saying they must be special in your game.

I think the two statements are closer than you make it out to be though. If Gauntlets of Ogre Power aren't special in my game, then my game isn't desireable to such a person. This extends to all magic items for some folks, though perhaps not for you.

You didn't say all magic items must be special, but others have. I havent' seen anyone suggest that NO magic item can be special. The "absolute" only seems to go one way.

It is in quotes (rather than a QUOTE tag) to differentiate it from the rest of the text as a seperate phrase. However, I am sure I could pull several equivilent quotes from this thread.

I don't think anyone really meant that though is my point. It's just an extreme example of the opposite of what one side is saying, rather than being an accurate view of the opposing side.

I agree with you that story (and unique bennies/non-stat-related atmosphere bits) adds more to an item than random rolls. OTOH, "randomness" and "predictability" are (as the words are normally used) opposites, and I brought up the random items in that context.

True, but I do think there's a matter of degree. The idea is that even random items (such as a wand of wonder) were somewhat predictable because they always did the same range of things. You didn't swing a +1 longsword and consult a table to see if it exploded instead of doing damage to the enemy. There were specific items of unpredictability, vs "magic items" being unpredictable.

If you ever played in Dragonlance and used the Tinker Gnome Invention chart, THAT is unpredictable. Every item made was unpredictable to some extent. Magic items in general were not. So, I agree that absolutely all magic items were not predictable, but on the whole I think magic items were as predictable in 1e as in 3e. It's just a matter of the degree to which you think "magic items are predictable commodities" must be proven. 90%, 98%, 100%...

Don't forget his Muffler of Warmth, either.

Of course.