Do publishers fear the John Cooper review?

JoeGKushner said:
If you're getting paid to do something then complaining that having it wrong doesn't effect the game is the wrong attitude to be coming at it.
No, its not like that. My only point is that no matter how hard you try, there will occasionally be a mistake. If your book is riddled with them, then yeah, I'd say that you need to work on it or find another pair of eyes to go over your work. If it comes down to one or two minor stat block errors, the type of things where you have to spend some serious time deconstructing them to find, then I don't see a lot of value in pointing them out.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

You also have to be careful who you submit reviews to. If you know a particular reviewer just loves products from a certain publisher or two and judges everyone else on another standard, then I wouldn't suggest sending review copies to that person. That's called a biased reviewer. Personally, I don't want to get my books reviewed by someone I know won't like them for certain.

I actually do appreciate specific comments containing a stat block or rule correction because it does help the next time around. However, I do not like it when it becomes the focus of the review and the reviewer fails to look at the big picture, the overall quality of the product. There are some bitchy reviewers that have nothing good to say about anything but stuff their favorite publishers put out.
 
Last edited:

1. Yes - John is the king of nitpicking, and thus I -do- fear his reviews. They scare me until I've read them. I get this premonition of "bloody heck, he's going to blow holes through the mechanics in this book, isn't he?". Then I read the review, and I -love- how fair he is and that he doesn't let the little mistakes pull the rating of the book down if it is still a good book (although he still lists them all!).

2. To evert the fear, he does proofreading on some of our products. He rocks. We are hiring him on for the E.N.World Gamer also as our proofreader.
 

Crothian said:
Well, there is a difference between someone saying "The product had errors in the stat blocks" and listing a half page to a page of errors.

Publishers can be... myopic. I mentioned in one paragraph in a 3 or 4 page review that a product was a bit pricey for the size... and I get a multiple paragraph reply about how I shouldn't be "obsessing" on price. (looking for rolleyes icon... how I miss you...)
 

Whisperfoot said:
IMy question is simply whether it makes a whole lot of difference if an NPC has 15 hit points instead of 13?

I have to admit, it really does not. Missing a point here or there is an error to be certain, but probably not an error that would make it unusable.
 

Vaxalon said:
If every author who hated writing stat blocks quit the business, it would be pretty hard to find good authors.

The sharp ones caught on a long time ago to the concept of having a "rules guru" or "NPC tech" on staff.
 

Some dude over at Necromancer was crying that he hated writing stat blocks. Uh dude, you're in the wrong business then.

This dude is a damn good author and storyteller. He is good at developing plots, fleshing npcs backgrounds/motivations and detailing wicked locations. NG has specialized guys/girls that take care of the d20 mechanics for him. I don't think he is in the wrong business at all.
 

saturnin55 said:
This dude is a damn good author and storyteller. He is good at developing plots, fleshing npcs backgrounds/motivations and detailing wicked locations. NG has specialized guys/girls that take care of the d20 mechanics for him. I don't think he is in the wrong business at all.

Yet at the same time, should he be actively complaining about it? Especially if the NG mechanics don't get the errors? Two sets of eyes and all that.

Perhaps he is in the wrong business and he should be writing, say a fantasy novel?
 

Wow - I was out of town most of the week, and I return home to find a thread about me? I'm just sorry it took me this long to find out about it. Hopefully I'll be able to address everybody's questions/concerns/comments, and I apologize in advance for the length of this response.

First of all, I hope I'm not unduly causing publishers any unnecessary stress. It's certainly not my intention. On the other hand, I have to admit that when I'm reviewing a d20 book, the publisher's reaction is not my primary concern; I'm more concerned with how useful the book is to the average consumer, and how well the book does at sticking with the d20 rules that they're supposed to be using. Correct game stats (as I try to mention in any of my reviews where I'll be pointing out a bunch of errors) are at the absolute top of my list. While I agree with Whisperfoot's comment - 13 hp vs. 15 hp isn't going to be a game-breaker - I'm strongly of the belief that a creature's stats should be perfectly useable as published. If you have to go through and fix up attack bonuses and AC values before actually using the monster (or worse yet, don't notice and end up with a TPK or something because the creature ended up way too powerful for the encounter), then I really don't feel that the publisher is doing a service to the consumer.

As a result, I've made it a habit to point out any mistakes I find in the creature stats. I'll admit that I'll occasionally point out "insignificant" errors (like Whisperfoot's 13 hp vs. 15 hp example), but my thoughts there are not "Ah ha! Another error that I can slam the publisher on!" but rather "Well, as long as I'm listing errors, I might as well make the list as complete as possible." Also, I hope that my error lists are helpful, both to the consumer and the publisher. As such, I really appreciate companies that take my inputs in the spirit in which they're intended and either make the appropriate changes on the spot (if it's a PDF) or add it to their errata list (if it's a print product). (Or, for that matter, call me on it: I've overlooked things myself on occasion and have had to go back and modify a review once my mistake has been pointed out to me. I'll be the first to admit that it's easy to make game stat errors!) Either way, the end result should be the same: a better set of game stats for the consumer.

As far as Whisperfoot's concerns that an error that has to be dug deep for probably isn't worth mentioning, I pretty much agree. As an example, I never bother checking out the Skill points in any monster stats I'm reviewing; it's too much work to subtract the ability modifiers from each Skill, figure out which Skills are cross-class, add up the total ranks, and make sure they equal the number of Skill ranks the creature should have. Plus, if I find an error, then what? There's no "correct answer" to what Skill ranks a monster should have (as opposed to, say an AC value: there is a "correct answer" to that!). That's pretty much my only exception, though; it's gotten so I can figure out a creature's BAB based on creature type, size, and class in my head, and if I come up with a different value I don't mind breaking out the books and making sure I've got it right.

As for my "nitpickiness" (and Hellhound: I just love the title "King of Nitpickers" - I'll wear that one with pride!), I'll be the first to admit it. Yes, I dislike it when an RPG book is riddled with typos, grammar mistakes, poor punctuation, and the like, and I make sure to include how well the book does in that regard in my reviews as well. I've never bought into the theory that these are "just" game books and thus should be held to a lower standard; a printed product is a printed product (ditto with PDFs, in my mind), and the rules of the English language are as important to me as the d20 rules. In my 74 reviews to date (I hope to make it 75 by tonight), I've only included a list of grammatical errors in one review, and that was to back up a statement I was making in the review (a bit of overkill I admit, and not the best use of my time; I still gave the product a "4").

Incidentally, my reviews have inadvertantly ended up gaining me a few proofreading assignments. Hellhound had me proofread Secrets of Theurgy based (in part) on my review of Steam & Steel, and I'll be doing the same on upcoming issues of EN World Gamer Magazine. As tensen mentioned, he hired me to do some proofreading work (an upcoming PDF) based in part on my review of Lost Prehistorica. I've done several reviews of Silverthorne Games PDFs, and as a result I was hired to proofread their web enhancement of Template Troves Volume 1 and will be working on a rather lengthy product of theirs sometime in the near future. Also, I sent in a list of errors (grammatical and otherwise) I found in Mongoose's Conan RPG book, and as a result I was told I picked up a "thanks to" credit in the updated version of the book (although I haven't seen it to check). This certainly wasn't a path I had ever intended to walk down, but as haiiro mentioned, I'm not against taking a paying job now and again. And, for obvious reasons, I'll never review a product that I had a hand in, proofreading or otherwise.

Ed Cha: I hope you don't feel that I fall into the category of reviewer you mentioned!

I think that just about covers everybody's comments.
 

John Cooper said:
I'm more concerned with how useful the book is to the average consumer...

Bingo! John is doing a public service, and for a publisher to cry about it is unprofessional and, frankly, childish. It shows that they are more worried about the bottom line than about customer satisfaction and putting out a quality product. If you put out good stuff that customers don't have to fix before using, the bottom line will take care of itself.


John Cooper said:
I'm strongly of the belief that a creature's stats should be perfectly useable as published. If you have to go through and fix up attack bonuses and AC values before actually using the monster (or worse yet, don't notice and end up with a TPK or something because the creature ended up way too powerful for the encounter), then I really don't feel that the publisher is doing a service to the consumer.

Bingo again. When I purchase a gaming product, I am paying my hard-earned cash for something that should be fun and relaxing. Fixing the errors is work, not fun, and I do enough work at work. I want my gaming to be a hobby, not another job. People like John are doing the work that should have been done by the publisher. And I, for one, thank them for it.


John Cooper said:
Yes, I dislike it when an RPG book is riddled with typos, grammar mistakes, poor punctuation, and the like, and I make sure to include how well the book does in that regard in my reviews as well. I've never bought into the theory that these are "just" game books and thus should be held to a lower standard; a printed product is a printed product (ditto with PDFs, in my mind), and the rules of the English language are as important to me as the d20 rules.

Very well said. I am a fairly smart person, and glaring spelling or grammatical errors really grate on me. The gaming population is aging. A thirteen year-old might be able to ignore these kinds of errors, but to intelligent grown-ups they are a problem. They add to an overall feel of low quality and detract from the gaming experience. As an example, a publisher I won't name has released an update to 3.5 of a very popular book. I was very excited about it, and was going to buy it sight unseen (my FLGS does not carry it). However, in an ad for it in one of the gaming magazines, they used the word "then" when they should have used the word "than." I was totally turned off, and will not buy the book for fear that more such errors lurk within. That may seem nit-picky, but that is such a simple spelling mistake that it should have been caught by the publisher, so seeing it leads me to believe that the product is probably just riddled with other such errors.

To conclude, let me give a big thank you to John Cooper and others like him. They are making our lives easier and the game more enjoyable. The publishers who don't want to have errors pointed out would be better served putting their energies into proofreading instead of complaining.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top