Do racial and template vision types/modifiers stack?

[FoxWander]

If a race and a template both give you the same vision types/modifiers, do they stack or overlap? Can you give a rules reference one way or the other?

I know the basic rules of stacking in D&D- different bonuses stack, same bonuses overlap and unnamed bonuses stack with anything except themselves. These hold for most everything with only a few explicit exceptions (dodge, for example). Do these same rules apply for templates? The simple answer is- of course they do, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Here's a couple of examples: a half-dragon dwarf (HDD) and a half-dragon elf (HDE). Half-dragon gives you both low-light vision and 60' darkvision. Dwarves have 60' darkvision and elves have low-light vision. Does the HDD have 120' darkvision or 60' darkvision? Does the HDE have low-light vision (2x) or superior low-light vision (4x)? Stacking rules would give the lower value in each case, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't have to make sense because A) it's the RAW or B)magic doesn't have to make sense- but still.

It doesn't seem right that two races with superior vision, of some kind, should combine into something with vision equal to either one by itself. Or maybe that makes perfect sense, now that I read over it again, but it seems like there should be some form of improvement. Or not- this isn't genetics and evolution, it's magic and fantasy. But still... you see what I'm getting at. (And no, what I'm getting at is NOT just squirming towards the best answer for the munchkin hybrid I'm building. )

Aside from stacking rules, I couldn't find a definitive answer as regards applying templates and vision types. Maybe stacking rules ARE the definitive answer... but it doesn't sit well. Does anyone know of a more precise answer to this question? Or have anything helpful to add?

Thanks in advance.

 

[frankthedm]

A half-dragon has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. A half-dragon has immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and an additional immunity based on its dragon variety.

Vision is not expressed as a bonus. You have 60' Darkvision, not Darkvision +60'. That is the vital difference. Some templates and other abilities add to vision but those are rare and quite specific. This game set the great majority of Darkvision to 60’ as a balancing act so that those who don’t have it [read 60% of PCs and very few other creatures] don’t get utterly hosed by those with dark vision.

 

[FoxWander]

Hmm, you make a good point about the lack of a "+" there for most templates with darkvision. But does the same hold true for low-light? I've seen examples of two low-lights combining into superior low-light? Sorry my brain is to muddled to recall the specifics though.

Has anyone else seen that combo into superior low-light vision?

 

[frankthedm]

Sorry my brain is to muddled to recall the specifics though.

That is a problem. I know dragons have double potency low light vision, but I would not be surprised if something has an ability like that.

 

[smootrk]

Maybe stacking rules ARE the definitive answer... but it doesn't sit well. Does anyone know of a more precise answer to this question? Or have anything helpful to add?
Thanks in advance.

Stacking is never the definitive answer... the contrary - almost nothing stacks unless it specifically says so.

That aside, I have seen somewhere where a class granted ability adds to vision but I cannot recall the instance at this time. In this case, the ability specifically states that it adds to the darkvision ability if the individual already has it.

 

[FoxWander]

Well I'm a little more awake now and did some research (text search in the Crystal Keep index- great resource!). Some prestige classes improve upon whatever vision type you already have: Horizon Walker (DMG), Animal Lord and Dungeon Delver (CAdv), Dark Hunter (CWar), Ruathar (PGF) and the Racial Paragon PRCs (UA). Some just overlap what you already have: Shadow Dancer (DMG), Acolyte of the Skin (CArc), Eye of Horus-Re and Shadow Adept (PGF). Others just grant a static better vision regardless of what you had before: Vassal of Bahamut (BoED).

So with that as a guide it's basically whatever the DM wants it to be for templates- which is what it would be anyway. Although stacking rules would seem to apply best, since examples otherwise are PrCs not templates, but there's still room to apply whatever seems best. Some combos might lend themselves to an overall improvement (for some reason I feel this applies to draconic mixes), others might be best with just an overlapping effect (fiendish and celestial, IMHO).

Thanks for the help Frank. Anybody else that might be reading this have any thoughts or examples to point out? (Edit- Smootrk posted while I was writing this. I think I covered most of the PrCs and what they do.)