D&D 3E/3.5 Do racial hit dice count for epic status? (3.5)

[Jdvn1]

Actually, ECL = total HD + LA.

Um, right. That's what I meant. I've been doing too many weird things with creatures lately.

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic ... or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.

I'd say yes for both cases.

 

[Jdvn1]

The DMG epic section only talks about monsters with class levels and makes no mention of monsters without. I can't think of an example monster that can have class levels without a LA except for the Mummy Lord which should probably qualify for epic feats and BAB/save progression yet doesn't

If a monster has no LA and no class levels it cannot become epic as per the DMG yet as Sukael has pointed out there may be exceptions for certain monsters e.g dragons

Well, the DMG wasn't built for that. I'm extrapolating from the rules given. And not all dragons have LA, yet they can have class levels. Also, undead can have class levels. I think most if not all creatures can have class levels (I've even seen a dire lion with Monk levels in Dungeon--the Awaken spell).

 

[glass]

This is my take (cobled together from various sources and/or made up to suit ):

For the purposes of [Epic] feats, creatures are epic from their 21st HD onwards, although if the do have epic feats it might affect their CR (especially in the case of MM monsters with alternate feats).

For the purposes of bab and saves, racial HD always count for full value at their normal progression (as per the ELH -they had to do this as they couldn't retroactively change existing high HD monsters). Class HD over 20th total HD (counting racial HD first) provide epic attack and save bonuses.

If a creature with class levels gains more racial HD, they slot in and 'push' the class HD up. BAB and saves are then recalculated based on the new totals.

Not exactly RAW, but the most consistant way of handling things based on what we have, IMO



glass.

 

[glass]

Remember that ECL = HD + LA. Which means if there's no LA, just go by HD.

'-' is not the same as '0'. Creatures with no LA have no ECL either, which is why I say go by HD for everyone.


glass.

 

[glass]

Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic

Yes.

...or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.

Yes for feats (although, arguably, not for class bonus feats). Yes for BAB/saves based on class levels. No for BAB/saves based on racial HD.


glass.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, the DMG wasn't built for that. I'm extrapolating from the rules given. And not all dragons have LA, yet they can have class levels. Also, undead can have class levels. I think most if not all creatures can have class levels (I've even seen a dire lion with Monk levels in Dungeon--the Awaken spell).

Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster. If the monster also does not have a LA, then he cannot advance by character class as a PC either.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster.

Demonstrably untrue.

Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line.

Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice.

Note the qualifiers: "most commonly" and "can."

Besides, if only those creatures who had "By Character Class" as their advancement line could take classes, then why would we have a discussion of what happens when a spellcasting dragon takes sorceror levels, or http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050510a ?

 

[Teemu]

If it's any help at all, here's what's in the 3.5 DnD FAQ:

When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.

 

[Grazzt]

Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster. If the monster also does not have a LA, then he cannot advance by character class as a PC either.

Incorrect. There are even sample monsters with class levels in the MM (or FF or MM3) that have a HD advancement listed and then a sample monster beside it with class levels.

Check out the Aboleth in the MM for example.

"Advancement:
9–16 HD (Huge); 17–24 HD (Gargantuan)"

and the sample monster listed is a 10th-level sorcerer aboleth.

Or check out the Hound Archon (also in the MM). Same thing. Listed as advancing by HD...and then the sample monster along with it has class levels.