Jdvn1
Hanging in there. Better than the alternative.
Um, right. That's what I meant.sukael said:Actually, ECL = total HD + LA.

Um, right. That's what I meant.sukael said:Actually, ECL = total HD + LA.
I'd say yes for both cases.sukael said:Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic ... or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.
Well, the DMG wasn't built for that. I'm extrapolating from the rules given. And not all dragons have LA, yet they can have class levels. Also, undead can have class levels. I think most if not all creatures can have class levels (I've even seen a dire lion with Monk levels in Dungeon--the Awaken spell).Prism said:The DMG epic section only talks about monsters with class levels and makes no mention of monsters without. I can't think of an example monster that can have class levels without a LA except for the Mummy Lord which should probably qualify for epic feats and BAB/save progression yet doesn't
If a monster has no LA and no class levels it cannot become epic as per the DMG yet as Sukael has pointed out there may be exceptions for certain monsters e.g dragons
Jdvn1 said:Remember that ECL = HD + LA. Which means if there's no LA, just go by HD.
sukael said:Well, I'm mainly trying to figure out if, say, a 15-HD dragon with 6 class levels would count as epic
...or, in another possible case, a 20+ HD dragon with a smattering of (total-below-20) levels.
Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster. If the monster also does not have a LA, then he cannot advance by character class as a PC either.Jdvn1 said:Well, the DMG wasn't built for that. I'm extrapolating from the rules given. And not all dragons have LA, yet they can have class levels. Also, undead can have class levels. I think most if not all creatures can have class levels (I've even seen a dire lion with Monk levels in Dungeon--the Awaken spell).
Infiniti2000 said:Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster.
SRD said:Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line.
Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice.
When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL
continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.
Infiniti2000 said:Any monster without the line "Advancement: By Character Class" cannot advance by character class as a monster. If the monster also does not have a LA, then he cannot advance by character class as a PC either.