Do Random Tables Reduce Player Agency?

Allow me to use an example: the PCs are heading from Southron to Northlund and can choose to take either the long but safe road or the faster but more dangerous road. Importantly, they don't know the mechanics behind those two road choices.

The rules (GM developed or otherwise) say that the chances of a negative encounter are double on the fast road -- but literally nothing else is defined before rolling.

If the PCs only have the barest information about potential difficulties -- thd fast road is "more dangerous" whatever that means-- are they being robbed of agency specifically as compared to a more carefully crafted route and potential dangers?

Let's assume that the description given to the PCs is equivalent, but yhe potential table roll results are much more varied from a challenge perspective than the designed routes.

What do you think?

I don't see that as necessarily affecting player agency at all.

Yes, the players don't really know how dangerous the two options are, and they may be forced to make a decision "in the dark." However, if that's what the characters know, then that's the characters making a decision in the dark.

The question is: Who decided the PCs need to take either one road or the other? Are they travelling this way because that's where they want to go, or is it the only option at all? Can they find another path entirely? Can they go ask around and see what kinds of dangers lurk down each path if they want to?

"You can take the fast road, or the slow road, but you have to take one of these two paths. Magic doesn't work here and I won't accept any other alternative. There are no other routes even overland. No ships will take you any closer. Travel spells and teleportation magic don't work, either." In that case, the players are losing agency. But that's just railroading. The danger of the two paths could be identical and there's no agency there.

Uncertainty alone, however, is not enough to invalidate agency. You don't know what's behind a door before you open it. It could be a treasure hoard, or it could be dragon. Player agency is having the choice to open the door or not. Player agency is not choosing what lies behind it. That doesn't change just because there are two doors instead of one, even if one says "DAINGUR: BIG MONSTUR" on it.
 

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The question is: Who decided the PCs need to take either one road or the other? Are they travelling this way because that's where they want to go, or is it the only option at all? Can they find another path entirely? Can they go ask around and see what kinds of dangers lurk down each path if they want to?
Can we just presume we got to the decision point by way of normal , reasonable play?
 

Yes!

I fact, this is why you have seen the vast majority of the vast majority of random tables be removed from most RPGs.

Wandering monsters or random encounters are a good example from D&D. For nearly 30 years this was a staple of most D&D games: any time any where 'monsters' or 'encounters' might just 'pop' out of thin air to attack or interact with the PCs. And this roll was mostly independent of any player actions. Players can not effect this rule much at all: if the characters were in a place that could trigger a monster or random encounter, then there was a chance it would happen.

For many such games, it's common for random encounters to happen "every so often" in a typical adventure: you can figure on one or two an hour most of the time. But it is possible to have a session with only a couple or even none; and on the other hand, it's possible to have lost and lots of them. And sometimes, they will happen several times....and always at bad, wrong or inconvenient times. For example, the characters might have a big fight...and as soon as it's over, face attack from some wandering monsters. Even worse might be when the wandering monsters show up during that big fight and join against the characters.

As has been said in other threads, the only way for player agency to happen is by game rules or GMs actions. Random Tables remove both of these. Any player using a rule can be effected by anything random, even more so a random encounter. And a random roll, even more so a random encounter, can effect a GMs actions.

I random table also prevents the players from knowing anything ahead of time because as a roll on a table, it does not exist in the game world until the roll was made. Just take a simple treasure chest table: empty, exploding or treasure. The roll is not made until the chest is opened, so the player can't get any information to make a decision. And when a character 'scouts' a location they might see a random encounter at that location or not. Either way, once the character leaves and comes back again an amount of time later...the random encounter is rolled again. On Monday the character saw the random encounter of a pack of kobolds, but when they come back on Friday is a battle dragon.

And this is even more so with well made random tables that have a good mix of possible things on the list. With a good mix of things on a table, a lot of weird, strange or worse can happen. The characters might open a treasure chest and find nothing, or a trap, or a monster, or some treasure, or some trapped treasure and on and on. Even more so, is the way the GM can't control things to give the players agency: whatever the GM randomly rolls must happen.
 

Can we just presume we got to the decision point by way of normal , reasonable play?

The point I'm suggesting is that the only way I see player agency being affected in any way is if the players are otherwise being railroaded in some way.

If it's:

PCs: "Let's go investigate that shipwreck the guy in the tavern mentioned. He said it was north up the coast. We go north!"
DM: "As you leave town, the guard at the gate warns you against taking the coastal road. The few people he's seen come that way have said it was very dangerous, and a few of them look injured, even. He recommends you take the mountain pass if you're headed north."
PCs: "Oh, we thank him for the news. How long will it take us to get to the shipwreck?"
DM: "Well, if you take the coastal road, it'll be a couple days. The mountain pass, though, would force you to take the long way around. It'll be a tenday."

So from here, the PCs could:
  1. Take the risk of the coastal road.
  2. Take the mountain pass and avoid the risk.
  3. Try to find someone who took the coastal road and made it to town to learn more about the dangers on the road.
  4. Attempt to scout the road or intercept a traveler on their way up the coastal road.
  5. Try to find a ship to take them up the coast, bypassing both routes.
  6. Return to town, gear up or hire some bodyguards, and take the coastal road better prepared for danger.
  7. Find a caravan to travel the coastal road with, hoping for security in numbers.
  8. Press the guard for more information.
  9. Give up on investigating the shipwreck.
I just don't see what a random encounter table has to do with it. Uncertainty and ignorance themselves are a risk and danger of adventuring. The DM isn't going to hand the PCs a list of encounters at the shipwreck itself, let alone a list of the treasure they will find as a reward, either.

Risk, as it turns out, is risky!
 

I think it depends upon the nature of the randomized tables, honestly. I'm currently writing up some random weather events tables for Six-Hack based on biome/seasons. Overland travel and exploration is a heavy focus for the game and, this being the case, I think such tables add to the experience rather than take away from it (without impacting player agency).
 

I would say tools do not create or destroy agency. Procedures can eliminate agency, by removing the space for players to make informed decisions, or by intrinsically rolling over player choices.
Procedures do nothing on their own, I find it really hard to envision a way that a procedure could deprive a player of agency. Some one has to apply that procedure and that application is a decision, other decisions could be made and arguably that other procedure should be applied.
 

Player agency means the ability to affect and change the game world. To make meaningful choices.
I don't think those two things are equivalent, and I think the first is not sufficient for the second.

In almost any RPGing, a player action declaration for their PC will affect and change the game world. It means that the world now contains a character doing, or at least attempting, whatever the player declared. And often it will also prompt the GM to narrate something to the player about what happens - perhaps by reading from their notes, perhaps by extrapolating from their notes, perhaps by just making something up.

But if the player was just, in effect, offering blind prompts to the GM, then I don't think the player acted with much agency or made very meaningful choices.

For me the classic critique of blind prompts, from the perspective of player agency, is found in Lewis Pulsipher's essays in late-70s/early-80s White Dwarf. His focus was on what he called "lottery D&D" - where the players have their PCs draw from Decks of Many Things, pull levers, drink from wells in the dungeon, etc, and the GM reads from their notes or rolls on their chart to tell the players what happens. He contrasted this with what he called "wargame-style D&D", which is more or less Gygax/Moldvay-style dungeon-crawling, based around the players gathering information about a somewhat static GM-authored situation, and then acting in a planned, reasoned way on that information.

I think Pulsipher's critique of lottery D&D generalises to play where the flavour/colour of the play is less gonzo than drinking from a magic well, but the structure of play is the same. And a situation in which the players know that some indeterminate badness will happen if they don't get from A to B in time; that one path to B is short but dangerous; and that the the other path is longer but safer; has the underlying structure of "lottery D&D". The players have no real choice but to declare their PCs leave A for B; and they can either pull the "maybe this will help us" lever, of taking the short route, or they can leave the lever unpulled and find out what the GM's default narration is by taking the long route. It's all very colourful, and in some fashion it "affects and changes the game world", just like pulling levers in lottery D&D does; but the choices don't seem meaningful to me beyond being gambles. And I don't see much player agency.

Often during a game players are working with incomplete information, sometimes without any at all. Given the choice of a T intersection in a dungeon with nothing to distinguish between the alternatives, the choice between them is arbitrary, not informed, right?
This relates to @FrogReaver's point about time horizon, I think.

If the assumption, at the table, is that the PCs will only traverse these tunnels once, then the choice is as you say arbitrary. In my own play - of 4e D&D and Burning Wheel - in these sorts of situations I typically don't bother working with detailed maps and architecturally-specific action declarations. I use abstract resolution - eg a skill challenge in 4e - to determine whether the PCs get to the other end, and what happens (and what costs are incurred) along the way.

But if the assumption - as in classic dungeon-crawling play - is that the players will traverse the tunnels multiple times, then this is information gathering. And so while, on it's own, it is not all that agential (unless the players have some other information that motivates them to scope out to the left before scoping out to the right), it feeds into the agential dimensions of play. Again, for me Lewis Pulsipher is one of the best authors on this, in those 40-something year old essays.

And if there's any info at all, that's still agency because it's something to go on, some data on which to base a meaningful decision. In the specific example you gave (one road is half the travel time but double the chance of encounters) the difference is relatively small all other factors being equal, but if one is expected to take a week and get them there in time for the coronation in nine days (say) and the other is expected to take two weeks... well, just knowing that is enough to make the fast road a meaningfully superior choice if their priority is getting there in time for the coronation.
This would be a simple application of a rational decision rule. One way of thinking about player agency is that the GM won't retrospectively muck about with the fiction (especially via manipulation of hidden backstory) so as to negate the optimality of these sorts of decisions.

At the table, one way of honouring that might be to roll your random encounter dice in the open.

If, for example, they have the option to turn back, or to spend resources on an Augury spell, or send a stealthy scout ahead down one or both passages to GAIN further info, they certainly still have some agency!

Going back to your random tables of wilderness encounters, I would say that without any prior info about the potential contents of the tables, agency is again relatively low. But especially if they have ways to GAIN further info, such as by seeking out rumors, asking local merchants or caravan guards who travel those roads, then again, agency exists. In such a case, I would be likely to give the players some info about the random tables, either out of game or diegetically. Say the players find and question some caravan guards about the more dangerous route. And I know that the three most common results on the table (6,7,8 on a 2d6 table, for example) are organized Orc raiding parties, small groups of trolls, and a band of Ogre brigards, the guards could tell the PCs about these relatively common threats. As well as maybe mentioning that a black dragon has been seen occasionally (it's a 12 on the table, but it's scary enough that everyone remembers hearing about sightings). Knowing about these threats the PCs could choose to keep Sleep and Fireball prepared, and maybe check town for potions or scrolls of Acid Resistance just in case.
If it costs nothing to get more information but time spent at the table declaring the appropriate actions, then there's a risk of asking players to trade off agency against boredom. I have played in games that had this character; I don't think they're very satisfying.

I prefer to embed the information gathering into some sort of cost/benefit matrix - my favourite game for this, at least at the moment, is Torchbearer: doing research during Town Phase adds to lifestyle cost (which is a downside) but (i) allows you to make a test (generally on Circles or Scholar) which is an upside because it feeds into advancement, and (ii) may give you useful info. Eg in my game the players (via these sorts of declared actions) learned that Celedhring had entered the caves years ago but never left, and so they thought "undead" and prepared themselves by buying holy water, and this helped them when, in the caves, they encountered undead.

The optimisation aspect in Torchbearer is probably not solvable in practical terms, as the various payoffs (risk of failing Lifestyle test; advancement benefits of making the research test; advantage gained by having holy water when fighting the undead) are hard to calculate and also hard to commensurate. But the players are exercising meaningful control over the "shape" and content of the shared fiction.
 

One of the best ways to increase player agency is to make future troubles/obstacles based on past decisions. Reincorporation as Avatar Legends would call it or Blowback as Unknown Armies likes to call it. How to set up these blowbacks can easily be inspired by a random table when the GM is creatively exhausted of ideas for how PC consequences from 2 sessions ago can bite them in the butt.

I think looking at the Oracle Tables in Ironsworn/Starforged (especially the latter) can show the flexibility of random tables. Especially so when they are used as surface to crystallize your own creativity around them.
I don't know Avatar Legends other than by reputation, but I understand it's a PbtA game and that gives me a sense of what "reincorporation" means. I am assuming it's similar to "moves snowball" in the Apocalypse World rulebooks.

To me, this is a completely different way of thinking about player agency from the optimisation approach that I've been focusing on so far in this thread: instead of a focus on optimising within a somewhat static situation based on imperfect information, it is about the players' contributions (direct and indirect) to a dynamically unfolding shared fiction. I agree with you that it produces high player agency RPGing.
 

Procedures do not create or destroy player agency, agency is negated by the DM ignoring or negating player decisions
Procedures do nothing on their own, I find it really hard to envision a way that a procedure could deprive a player of agency. Some one has to apply that procedure and that application is a decision, other decisions could be made and arguably that other procedure should be applied.
By "procedures" do you mean something like "game mechanics"?

My first thought on reading your posts was that procedures of play are absolutely fundamental to player agency. But I re-read and thought that you might be using "procedures" in some narrower sense than procedures of play.
 

By "procedures" do you mean something like "game mechanics"?

My first thought on reading your posts was that procedures of play are absolutely fundamental to player agency. But I re-read and thought that you might be using "procedures" in some narrower sense than procedures of play.
Pretty much, since it was prompted by a discussion of random tables.
 

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