Do scenarios need a BBEG?

[DonTadow]

That's the statement which my PS addressed specifically. I do not agree that playing a D&D game is "telling a story". Playing D&D is putting yourself in a situation under the guise of a fictional character as it occurs. "Telling the story" can happen after the game has been played.


I didn't imply anything of that sort, indeed. What I am implying, however, is that the notion that RPG sessions "tell a story" increase the risk of falling into such traps. Idem about finding yourself, as a DM, falling short because the players "aren't serious" and "don't want to play the way the story's supposed to unfold".

I come to really reject the notion that RPGs would be any sort of modern "storytelling".

That's the thing though, a story is still being told, whether you want to call it or not. If you're playing any game, dungeons and dragons or otherwise, there's a story involved. Dungeons and dragons stories are closer to fiction because of the role playing aspect.

It just kills me that people want to live in a fantasy world within the fantasy world of dungeons and dragons and pretend that there is no story.

I think you're taking the analogy too far. Its a story, what you do with it or how you tell it or how you hide it is your own bag. I don't have such hangups as a DM where I feel I fall short. But you do enforce my point that the reason DMs are scared to use the word story is because of their lack of confidence or own fears.

 

[Odhanan]

I don't think we are understanding each other. It's not about me lacking confidence as a DM. I'm not trying to call "a story" by any other name.

A story is the account of a series of events that have occurred. A role-playing game is felt in the "now", not the past. Therefore, you cannot have expectations as to the "end of the game" or anything of that sort. That's actually, in my opinion, a very huge difference. Sure, as a DM you can prepare "plot" elements for lack of a better word, with possible events and reactions to PCs actions at this or that point of the adventure. The key word here being "possible".

I don't think I am the one taking the analogy too far. If anything, I think we, as a gaming community at large of tabletop RPG gamers, have taken the comparison between RPGs and literature/movies way too far, instead of treating them like the particular medium they truly are.

Indeed, what we would need I think is a whole host of new terms and specificities that do not come from other forms of media but are directly related to RPGs themselves. Instead of "story", let's talk about "adventure". Instead of "scene", let's talk about "encounters" or "events". Hey, wait! These terms already exist for the most part!

 

[DonTadow]

I don't think we are understanding each other. It's not about me lacking confidence as a DM. I'm not trying to call "a story" by any other name.

A story is the account of a series of events that have occurred. A role-playing game is felt in the "now", not the past. Therefore, you cannot have expectations as to the "end of the game" or anything of that sort. That's actually, in my opinion, a very huge difference. Sure, as a DM you can prepare "plot" elements for lack of a better word, with possible events and reactions to PCs actions at this or that point of the adventure. The key word here being "possible".

I don't think I am the one taking the analogy to far. If anything, I think we, as a gaming community at large of tabletop RPG gamers, have taken the comparison between RPGs and literature/movies way too far, instead of treating them like the particular medium they truly are.

Indeed, what we would need I think is a whole host of new terms and specificities that do not come from other forms of media but are directly related to RPGs themselves. Instead of "story", let's talk about "adventure". Instead of "scene", let's talk about "encounters" or "events". Hey, wait! These terms already exist for the most part!

A rose by any other name is just as sweet?

I guess i dont see the point in disguising the word or giving it another definition because some of us don't feel comfortable with the word because they don't want to confuse it for a story reading? I don't think anyone ever has that problem. As a matter of fact changing terms would only seclude the hobby even more. Its far easier to explain RPGs to a person if they understand the elements of other media. If we have our own code words we obscure the hobby even further.

 

[00Machado]

I like the idea of different types of dramatic endings besides a fight with the BBEG, but am having trouble coming up with catgories of endings to springboard ideas from. Anyone care to chime in with categories?

So far I have:
Fight BBEG
Fight large group (probably tied to something that they'll later encounter, like a BBEG or group of bosses)
Run, get chased, successfully escape something/group that the players don't want to get caught by. You might even put this under a braoder category of "beat the clock". Under that category you'd have things like - escape before you get caught, throw the ring into the lava before the last of the good armies of the world is wiped out

So really, I may have just two categories so far (big fight, and beat the clock), with a few sub categories.

It's starting to look to me like the only types of dramatic endings we have are ones that break the game if the PCs lose (unless the GM fudges so that they win).

Imagine the fun of a game where Smaug kills everyone on the battlefield, Sauron gets his ring after weeks or months of playing a game where you tried to destroy it, or you get caught (again) by the goblins while trying to escape the misty mountains instead of the eagles helping take you to the next encounter.

 

[Piratecat]

Oh please.

When you say that most of the people on this thread lack imagination, that's insulting.

I may not have been clear earlier. Everyone should stop the meta-discussion about insulting/being insulted, please, and concentrate on the topic instead. It's an interesting topic; it would be a shame if it degenerated into an argument. To that end, everyone please make an effort not to be purposefully antagonistic when posting your opinion, and don't look for personal insult where none is originally intended. In the unlikely case that I feel someone is going out of their way to be a jerk or pick a fight, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be thrilled with the results.

Thanks.

 

[Odhanan]

I guess i dont see the point in disguising the word

Let me repeat again: I'm not trying to "hide" anything.

or giving it another definition because some of us don't feel comfortable with the word because they don't want to confuse it for a story reading?

Let me repeat it again: I'm not "uncomfortable" with the word. I think the word is a complete misnomer. Nuance.

I don't think anyone ever has that problem.

There I can honestly say, Don, that you are wrong. I've met and read, in RL, on the web, so on, so forth, many Game Masters that just misunderstand the difference and try to play Shakespeare with their game. Suddenly, they find themselves all surprised that the players don't follow them in their trip. Well, sorry to say that, but these guys should know that a role-playing game isn't made to play Shakespeare.

As a matter of fact changing terms would only seclude the hobby even more. Its far easier to explain RPGs to a person if they understand the elements of other media. If we have our own code words we obscure the hobby even further.

As long as the medium stays unnoticed yes, it does. What defining RPGs according to concepts of other media does, too, is let it sort of survive in the collective memory as some sort of sub-cultural gaming crap that has no identity by itself. That's making the same sort of mistake as the guys making epic movies in the 50's/60's were doing when building their films using the structural concepts of written fiction. Thank god, movies came out of it and developed their own language (in terms of camera angles, cuts and so on, and so forth). That still needs to happen for RPGs (actually, it has occurred to some degree I think, but it needs to become far more prevalent, IMO).

 

[DonTadow]

Let me repeat again: I'm not trying to "hide" anything.


Let me repeat it again: I'm not "uncomfortable" with the word. I think the word is a complete misnomer. Nuance.


There I can honestly say, Don, that you are wrong. I've met and read, in RL, on the web, so on, so forth, many Game Masters that just misunderstand the difference and try to play Shakespeare with their game. Suddenly, they find themselves all surprised that the players don't follow them in their trip. Well, sorry to say that, but these guys should know that a role-playing game isn't made to play Shakespeare.


As long as the medium stays unnoticed yes, it does. What defining RPGs according to concepts of other media does, too, is let it sort of survive in the collective memory as some sort of sub-cultural gaming crap that has no identity by itself. That's making the same sort of mistake as the guys making epic movies in the 50's/60's were doing when building their films using the structural concepts of written fiction. Thank god, movies came out of it and developed their own language (in terms of camera angles, cuts and so on, and so forth). That still needs to happen for RPGs (actually, it has occurred to some degree I think, but it needs to become far more prevalent, IMO).

What you've seen is people who do not confuse the word, but do the story differently. I don't know why it feels good to tell yourself that you are not tryng to hide or disguise the word. A story is being told somewhere in the game. Some DMs like to bring it out, some like to shape it. OK thats fine. Some, like yourself, have a differnet playstyle and like to say it isn't there because you think it gets in the way fine. I'm not making an argument either way. Regardless of your playstyle there's a story there. What you suggest is use a different term for story because you want other dms to stop playing their style. Thats where this argument goes to hell. Your gamestyle is decent for what you do but it is not the definiate way. As a matter of fact its pretty much in the minority got dungeons and dragons 3e considering the increase in board games more geared for that type of style with more definiatie play such as Decent.

Luckily, I rarely meet players whom don't expect to roleplay. I say for every 6 players I meet only 1 doesnt think backgrounds, storys and role playing is apart of the game.

 

[Piratecat]

What you've seen is people who do not confuse the word, but do the story differently. I don't know why it feels good to tell yourself that you are not tryng to hide or disguise the word.

Last warning.

Don, Odhanan - don't tell one another what the other person has or hasn't seen. That's bound to lead to problems. You each clearly have a different perspective, and I'd appreciate you discussing it without bickering. That means not putting words in the other person's mouth, and not being insulting or purposefully argumentative.

One more problem in here and the thread goes Klunk, with appropriate suspensions if necessary. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

 

[Elfdart]

When you say that most of the people on this thread lack imagination, that's insulting.

If the shoe fits...

While you're perfectly free to do this in a fantasy world, it is wildly untrue in the real world.

I love the way you left off the rest:

or (b) swap or overthrow leaders at the drop of a hat. What's more, I see nothing inherently more important about fighting off a pack leader as opposed to any other wolf in the group

Nice going.

Yeah, it's a cliché that has been used since the beginning of... hmm... literature... and we don't need anymore good literature! We've got enough already.

Last time I checked, D&D was a game. Not a novel and certainly not dinner theatre.

This sort of adventure you can only pull off once or twice, if you plan for it, and not have it happen serendipitously.

That's exactly how it happened and we had a blast. Serendipity is what games are all about. A combination of skill and chance. You can do everything right and still lose; you can do everything wrong and still win. We've had a number of adventures turn out very differently from what the DM/module designer had in mind. Railroading requires more effort than playing it by ear and adjusting on the fly.

It's like setting up the party to kill each other, or running the occational hömage to something inspiring, like having the party run through scenes of an adventure backwards as in Memento. Those are nice one shot deals. But aren't the meat and potatoes of good storytelling/roleplaying.

When I'm ready to tell a story, I read to the kids. When I play D&D, I'm playing a game. The two are completely different things.

Even if I were inclined to do the D&D-as-amateur-theatrics/storyteller thing, I'd avoid clinging to a script like a lifejacket and adhering to cliches. Great storytellers know when to change or chuck a script when it's not working whereas sticking to the script no matter what (railroading, in game terms) is the sign of the hack. There's a reason the late Robert Altman is considered a great filmmaker and it's not his devotion to the script. Chucking cliches and/ or turning them around is another sign of creativity.

For my money, the best action/adventure movie of all time (I'm not alone considering how many filmmakers crib from this movie.) is The Seven Samurai. There's no BBEG in the movie. Just a gang of brigands. The "leader" is nothing special and is only noteworthy because (a) he kills the Toshiro Mifune character and (b) he has a patch over one eye. The bandits are plenty menacing enough without a Moriarty-like mastermind behind it all. The cliches about the noble samurai get demolished in the movie as well. They are exposed as being little different from the bandits. I have a good idea of what The Seven Samurai would have been like had "storytellers" got hold of it and it's not pretty.

Speaking of outlaws, some people have the mistaken impression that the "leaders" of such groups are the stuff BBEGs are made of. Hogwash. To the extent pirates, brigands and others like them have leaders at all, they are almost always one or two unprofitable raids away from being replaced. Not BBEG material at all.

 

[Piratecat]

And that, kids, is how you get a seven day suspension. Elfdart, when you return, I hope you'll review the rules so that this doesn't happen again. Next time it's permanent.