D&D 4E Do the races in 4e remind you of Dragonlance?

[Kwalish Kid]

Heh.

It's just one of those things. Someone made the comment that the 4e rules will make it harder to represent Dragonlance, and it it dawned on me that Dragonlance had done a few things similar to what the 4e designers have done.

That was me and no, it's not really similar.

For the Dragonlance project, the project team tried to develop a campaign world and epic story arc that would reproduce AD&D mechanics as faithfully as possible, with a few unique elements thrown in. In the development of 4E, the project team tried to design a fantasy RPG system that would capture essential play elements of D&D and desired fantasy settings regardless of the story elements of particular D&D franchises.

Consider:

No Half-Orcs, Halflings or Gnomes in Dragonlance.
Instead, you get Kender and Tinker Gnomes.

4e gets rid of Half-Orcs and Gnomes, and the Halfling takes the good bits of the Kender (it did so in 3e, strictly. They're no longer hobbits).

4E gets rid of none of these things. They are, as far as I can tell, simply on a different release schedule.

Dragonlance adds Draconians. 4e has Dragonborn.
Dragonlance has Irda. 4e has Eladrin.

A nice comparison, except that Draconians are not much like Dragonborn and Irda are definitely not like Eladrin.

Now I think that 4E can be adapted for Dragonlance of any age, but there is really little basis for comparison.

 

[Scribble]

Red-Robes, according to DLA, cannot cast sleep.

I'm nowhere near my copy of DLA, and it's beena LOOOONG time since I looked at it... But could the black robes cast sleep?

If so, maybe Raistlin's abilities had something to do with Fisty?

 

[ferratus]

Nice to see you too Trampas, and yes I can say that the domestic married life certainly agrees with me. Need to change jobs though.

(now to get back on topic)

As I said earlier, I think the change to 4e will be less traumatic than the change to 3e because 3e Dragonlance was releasing new products (and taking advantage of 3e rules) right up to the time 4e was announced. Since third edition had less role restrictions than even 4e is going to, a lot of preconceived notions about what must be have opened up a bit. I will put forth the thesis that the goal of Dragonlance, more than any other setting, is to match what we see in the novels.

I think the biggest problem to sync will be the magic system. Like most of the TSR books, you could hear the dice rolling in the background. So there was specific referencs to wizards needing rest, spells being cast and forgotten, specific iconic spells. This will have to be explained away after the Vancian magic is removed. As well, Dragonlance has a very distinctive magical culture, based on the Wizards of High Sorcery. We do not yet know how the wizard traditions will work, or whether organization-based feat names will have to be accommodated or renamed. That said, Dragonlance is a good example of why setting specific names for core rules are a bad idea.

The other big wrinkle is the apparent lack of sorcerers in 4e. 5th Age introduced them, so it was a natural fit when 3e came out, though many complained when the SAGA system free-form magic was turned into a pseudo-Vancian kind. Now that 4e does not seem to have any sorcerers at all, so the question is left to Dragonlance on what to do with theirs. If I had my way I'd simply write them out of the story, since sorcerers simply weren't as interesting as the WoHS. An easy way to do this is to simply have the moon gods seize control of wild magic and tame it, just as they did once already.

Aside from writing a magic-using class out, we have to write one in. The warlock is something that can be inserted without too much trouble. With wild magic gone, it is a perfect opportunity for disenfranchised renegades and Thorn Knights to go looking for a new power source. The Devils of Hiddukel and the Demons of Sargonnas will be perfect candidates to start offering pacts of magical power. Certain powerful dragons may also be candidates for channeling power through warlocks since it has been established that they do not draw upon the three moons but have innate magical power. The final branch of Warlocks would be empowered by the mysterious denizens of "the Gray" plane.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Nice to see you too Trampas, and yes I can say that the domestic married life certainly agrees with me. Need to change jobs though.

Glad life has been treating you well.

As I said earlier, I think the change to 4e will be less traumatic than the change to 3e because 3e Dragonlance was releasing new products (and taking advantage of 3e rules) right up to the time 4e was announced.

That, and Dragonlance fandom isn't as splintered as it once was.

The other big wrinkle is the apparent lack of sorcerers in 4e. 5th Age introduced them, so it was a natural fit when 3e came out, though many complained when the SAGA system free-form magic was turned into a pseudo-Vancian kind. Now that 4e does not seem to have any sorcerers at all, so the question is left to Dragonlance on what to do with theirs. If I had my way I'd simply write them out of the story, since sorcerers simply weren't as interesting as the WoHS. An easy way to do this is to simply have the moon gods seize control of wild magic and tame it, just as they did once already.

My understanding is that sorcerers will, in fact, be in 4e. I'm not sure if they'll be in the PHB I, or saved for the PHB II. From what I've read, it sounds like sorcerers are going to actually be a better fit for DL than they were in 3e. Marius from DLForums.com had this to say....

They fight to control their power, and their spell energy lingers after castings...something to that effect. The example given was after a sorcerer casts fireball they might be wreathed in flames for awhile as the energy burns itself off or something.

To me, that just screams Wild Sorcery.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I will put forth the thesis that the goal of Dragonlance, more than any other setting, is to match what we see in the novels.

100% agree; though you have to pick and choose your novels, since they can disagree with each both in tone and in general facts(!). The Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends are far more "the canon" of DL than any particular rules sourcebook (IMO) or other novels.

I think the biggest problem to sync will be the magic system. Like most of the TSR books, you could hear the dice rolling in the background. So there was specific referencs to wizards needing rest, spells being cast and forgotten, specific iconic spells. This will have to be explained away after the Vancian magic is removed.

I actually would NOT try to explain this away. For one thing, DL has been through way too many Ansalon Shaking Events ("ASE") already. No more, please.

I would prefer just a ret-con. The novels were character and story driven anyway, so none of that has to change. In fact, many of the story elements (such as Raistlin casting spells beyond his level, or becoming physically exhausted from spellcasting) were never supported in the 1E or 2E rules anyway, so there's already precedent for that.

I'd just prefer that Magic was suddenly 4E magic, and that in fact it had always been 4E magic. Raistlin's preferred implement was the Staff, of course.

The other big wrinkle is the apparent lack of sorcerers in 4e. 5th Age introduced them, so it was a natural fit when 3e came out, though many complained when the SAGA system free-form magic was turned into a pseudo-Vancian kind. Now that 4e does not seem to have any sorcerers at all, so the question is left to Dragonlance on what to do with theirs. If I had my way I'd simply write them out of the story, since sorcerers simply weren't as interesting as the WoHS. An easy way to do this is to simply have the moon gods seize control of wild magic and tame it, just as they did once already.

Aside from writing a magic-using class out, we have to write one in. The warlock is something that can be inserted without too much trouble. With wild magic gone, it is a perfect opportunity for disenfranchised renegades and Thorn Knights to go looking for a new power source. The Devils of Hiddukel and the Demons of Sargonnas will be perfect candidates to start offering pacts of magical power. Certain powerful dragons may also be candidates for channeling power through warlocks since it has been established that they do not draw upon the three moons but have innate magical power. The final branch of Warlocks would be empowered by the mysterious denizens of "the Gray" plane.

All good thoughts.

My only comment is: Just because it's in 4E does not mean you have to support it in DL. I think it was a mistake to support 3E Sorcerers (as written). I mean, Warlocks of Hiddekul sounds really freaking cool, but make sure that Warlocks (generally) are a good idea before moving forward. Don't jump to the second decision until you've made the first.

 

[Dragonhelm]

My only comment is: Just because it's in 4E does not mean you have to support it in DL. I think it was a mistake to support 3E Sorcerers (as written). I mean, Warlocks of Hiddekul sounds really freaking cool, but make sure that Warlocks (generally) are a good idea before moving forward. Don't jump to the second decision until you've made the first.

I agree. I really don't see tiefling warlocks being in Dragonlance. Some 4e options just may not work, or they may be considered "non-standard." There are all sorts of ways of tackling things.

As for the sorcerer, WotC kind of insisted on it being used to represent the Fifth Age sorcerer (which has a pretty different feel). It's funny how sorcerers in DL weren't supposed to affect living things, yet now they can summon a familiar.

My initial reaction to 4e and DL has been one of caution, but as I get into things, I'm seeing a lot more potential. We won't know for certain until the books are released, but I think a conversion is entirely possible.

 

[Cam Banks]

To me, that just screams Wild Sorcery.

You're still the only person typing that in Title Case, man.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Cam Banks]

I would prefer just a ret-con. The novels were character and story driven anyway, so none of that has to change. In fact, many of the story elements (such as Raistlin casting spells beyond his level, or becoming physically exhausted from spellcasting) were never supported in the 1E or 2E rules anyway, so there's already precedent for that.

You will find that this was included in the novels as a means of explaining away the limited number of spells per day a wizard could cast. Raistlin would run out of spells, he'd get more and more exhausted. It didn't have any real effect other than that. There are also options in the older rules as well as in 3rd edition for casting spells greater than your level, but for the most part Raistlin was a textbook AD&D magic-user.

I

'd just prefer that Magic was suddenly 4E magic, and that in fact it had always been 4E magic. Raistlin's preferred implement was the Staff, of course.

I see no problem at all with this, as the 'I am worn out' thing still applies. And Dalamar's implement is the wand, etc.

My only comment is: Just because it's in 4E does not mean you have to support it in DL. I think it was a mistake to support 3E Sorcerers (as written). I mean, Warlocks of Hiddekul sounds really freaking cool, but make sure that Warlocks (generally) are a good idea before moving forward. Don't jump to the second decision until you've made the first.

Correct. I am not in a rush to include tieflings and dragonborn as written into Dragonlance. They can serve as interesting suggestions mechanically for writing up non-standard races that are featured as DL race options, however - Irda, minotaurs, draconians, kyrie, and so forth.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[MerricB]

Correct. I am not in a rush to include tieflings and dragonborn as written into Dragonlance. They can serve as interesting suggestions mechanically for writing up non-standard races that are featured as DL race options, however - Irda, minotaurs, draconians, kyrie, and so forth.

Do you ever get the feeling that Tracy Hickman really hates gnomes?

Exhibit 1: Tinker Gnomes.
Exhibit 2: Prit (see Pharoah).

Cheers!

 

[Irda Ranger]

Do you ever get the feeling that Tracy Hickman really hates gnomes?

Other than Whizbang Dustyboots, who doesn't?