Do TTRPGs Need to "Modernize?"

Wolfpack48

Adventurer
Let me try to give some real world examples. I'll change some of the details so we don't get hung up on a specific system.

Example 1: The Tough Opponent
You're a spellcaster and your spells cannot affect a magic resistant creature. Or you don't have the right magic weapon to get past the Damage Reduction (or you're just not strong enough to do enough damage). There is an ally who does have the right weapon (or spell) - so it's not like the party should just run away, and you don't want to hamper the fun of the player who is prepared to deal with this challenge.
What can your character realistically do during this fight? Maybe you can get into a position to flank the monster to give the ally better odds to hit? (Or trip the monster? Or temporarily blind it?) More than likely the enemy is too dangerous for you to get close enough to it. Or it's too strong to be tripped. And your trying to get close enough to do something/anything is just going to put you in danger and it's a smarter decision to let the tank be the tank.
And how long does this fight take ... maybe 30-40 minutes? How often do these battles come up where you can do nothing ... maybe once or twice a session?

Example 2: Shut Your Mouth, Barbarian
The party needs to infiltrate the royal ball and make an important deal with a noble. Your barbarian has no training in a useful social skill - even if she has Intimidate, that's a bad idea in the circumstances. The spotlight is on the bard who can wheel and deal through intense roleplaying scenes that last about an hour. In the meanwhile, the barbarian does nothing. Now imagine a campaign that has a lot of these moments, 2-3 scenes per session (on average). Now you still need the muscle of the barbarian in the party for when things go bad, but for the most part, you're sitting there doing nothing.

Example 3: I Just Need to Sneak
The rogue with his high Dexterity, light armor, and great Stealth check doesn't want the clumsy wizard following or the racket of the paladin in full plate. It's important to get the layout of the bandit keep, and the rogue has a good disguise if he gets spied anyway. It just isn't believable for the wizard to come along. I guess we should all go grab a beer for 45 minutes?

Example 4: The Know-It All vs. the Specialist
Hey, it's really important for the good of the party that you're an expert in healing and medicine. After all, it's important that characters get to live. So you max out ranks in healing, purchase good medical equipment to keep the party alive. But what you don't have - effective weapons or combat abilities. Skill ranks in persuasion or knowledge about politics. Maybe you can create a sedative to use on the enemy to help bolster the party? No, it doesn't work that way? Okay. You're essentially an NPC at this point. That other guy - the guy who got to take all the knowledge skills and can interact with roleplay and combat - that's the hero and you're just making it so he can have fun. The minute you dare open your mouth with your Charisma penalties, you've doomed the party to failure, you selfish jerk.

I hope these 4 Examples - which are ones I see almost weekly - illustrate how many RPGs do a poor job of maintaining fun for the majority of players throughout the session. I think your players would agree, if you asked them. For a hobby that purports to be cooperative, it really rewards solo design.
I don’t think any of these examples are for mechanics to solve, but rather interesting puzzles for the player and referee to work out in play. All of these are situations looking for player creativity keeping in mind allowing a fair share of spotlight.
 
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overgeeked

B/X Known World
I don’t think any of these examples are for mechanics to solve, but rather interesting puzzles for the player and referee to work out in play. All of these are situations looking for player creativity keeping in mind keeping a fair share of spotlight.
Exactly. Creativity is the name of the game. Brute forcing things only works some of the time. Trying to make brute force all the time and not being creative will lead to problems.
 

Retreater

Legend
I don’t think any of these examples are for mechanics to solve, but rather interesting puzzles for the player and referee to work out in play. All of these are situations looking for player creativity keeping in mind keeping a fair share of spotlight.
A simple solution...

a. Let the character be effective in the role assigned in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting. If you're a wizard, you're good at magic.

b. Let the character be good at other things, not connected to the role in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting AND (if you choose it) you are interested in the lore of noble houses - so you're also good at identifying nobles and you have a basic understanding of the Ps and Qs of social situations. Or you're a doctor who has dabbled in the Occult, so you can heal the party while helping point out weaknesses in supernatural creatures.

In too many games you must sacrifice what you are obligated to do for the good of the game to have diversity in abilities. This shouldn't be a thing.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
A simple solution...

a. Let the character be effective in the role assigned in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting. If you're a wizard, you're good at magic.

b. Let the character be good at other things, not connected to the role in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting AND (if you choose it) you are interested in the lore of noble houses - so you're also good at identifying nobles and you have a basic understanding of the Ps and Qs of social situations. Or you're a doctor who has dabbled in the Occult, so you can heal the party while helping point out weaknesses in supernatural creatures.

In too many games you must sacrifice what you are obligated to do for the good of the game to have diversity in abilities. This shouldn't be a thing.
I'll agree to this and D&D has been better and worse through the editions. The skill system of 5E makes this pretty much the case.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Yeah, I reject the premise in the entirety.

Games have been "modernizing" and changing over the past five decades.

OD&D is not 5e.
Ten Candles is not Traveller.
FKR is not Phoenix Command.

And so on. Given the plethora of games and game systems out there, it is relatively difficult to understand why a person would keep harping on D&D as a specific example.

If you don't like D&D, then play one of the many other very good NOT-D&D systems. Because ... D&D is very good at being D&D, and people seem to like it for what it is. And there are numerous alternatives that are much better at being not-D&D than D&D will be.

IMO.


ETA- I would add the following two postscripts ...

a. Boardgames are not TTRPGs.
b. (the vast majority of) Youtube videos are better at generating controversy than thoughtful analysis.
 

Amrûnril

Adventurer
While I have a hard time imagining how Eurogames' approach to randomness (randomized options with deterministic resolution) would apply to RPGs in general, it does occur to me that this could be an interesting approach to spellcaster class design. Imagine if a Sorcerer, for instance, chose some of their daily spells but had the remainder determined randomly.

More broadly, I think that RPG design could probably learn more from cooperative games like Pandemic or Spirit Island than from competitive games like Catan or Wingspan. And I think that many of the relevant lessons could be applied at the level of adventure/encounter design rather than at the level of overall game design.

All players are equal (same number of actions).
Not that it's important to the overall discussion, but as an Agricola player, I hope the video includes some significant clarification/caveats regarding this point.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
There are so many things wrong with these examples it's hard to know where to start.

Again, you're stuck in the false assumption that you're limited to the mechanics on your character sheet and nothing else.
Let me try to give some real world examples. I'll change some of the details so we don't get hung up on a specific system.

Example 1: The Tough Opponent
You're a spellcaster and your spells cannot affect a magic resistant creature. Or you don't have the right magic weapon to get past the Damage Reduction (or you're just not strong enough to do enough damage).

What can your character realistically do during this fight? Maybe you can get into a position to flank the monster to give the ally better odds to hit? (Or trip the monster? Or temporarily blind it?) More than likely the enemy is too dangerous for you to get close enough to it. Or it's too strong to be tripped. And your trying to get close enough to do something/anything is just going to put you in danger and it's a smarter decision to let the tank be the tank.

And how long does this fight take ... maybe 30-40 minutes? How often do these battles come up where you can do nothing ... maybe once or twice a session?
You're assuming that you have to hit the target where it's strongest and since that doesn't work, you throw up your hands and quit. It's an odd reaction.

This is where creativity in general and creativity specifically with spells comes into play. The old standbys of casting rock to mud on the ground and letting the tough opponent sink into the mud...only to cancel or cast the reverse spell, mud to rock, thereby trapping the opponent in the rock and making them an easier target. Or casting wall of stone above the target's head and letting gravity do its thing. You don't have to attack the target directly. That's a choice you're making. And you certainly don't have to attack the target where they're strongest. If they're magic resistant, don't attack them directly with magic. You're a spellcaster, okay...so? Don't attack them directly with magic. Attack them indirectly with magic or directly with non-magical means. Don't have a staff, dagger, sling, crossbow, etc? That was a mistake on your part. Don't have utility spells that can effect the environment? That was a mistake on your part. If nothing else, pick up a rock from the ground and throw it.
Example 2: Shut Your Mouth, Barbarian
The party needs to infiltrate the royal ball and make an important deal with a noble. Your barbarian has no training in a useful social skill - even if she has Intimidate, that's a bad idea in the circumstances. The spotlight is on the bard who can wheel and deal through intense roleplaying scenes that last about an hour. In the meanwhile, the barbarian does nothing. Now imagine a campaign that has a lot of these moments, 2-3 scenes per session (on average). Now you still need the muscle of the barbarian in the party for when things go bad, but for the most part, you're sitting there doing nothing.
Again, several things being overlooked. There's all the prelude to this scene. You're a group of adventurers who're trying to infiltrate the royal ball...okay. So what was the barbarian doing during the hours of planning and setup? Chances are they could contribute a lot during that. Gather information, intimidate kitchen staff, etc. During this scene there's always the distraction angle, replacing one of the guards, replacing one of the kitchen staff, pretending to be a temp hire, etc. Pick an episode of Leverage and watch that. Watch what the character Eliot Spencer does and take notes. Pass those along to the barbarian's player.
Example 3: I Just Need to Sneak
The rogue with his high Dexterity, light armor, and great Stealth check doesn't want the clumsy wizard following or the racket of the paladin in full plate. It's important to get the layout of the bandit keep, and the rogue has a good disguise if he gets spied anyway. It just isn't believable for the wizard to come along. I guess we should all go grab a beer for 45 minutes?
If you intentionally exclude every way the wizard can make that scouting mission easier or completely obviate it, sure. All the charm spells, all the divination spells, all the transmutation spells, polymorph, invisibility, portable holes, bags of holding, etc. If you decide ahead of time that the only useful thing is a Dexterity (Stealth) check, then sure...having a high Dexterity and expertise in Stealth wins the day. But you're intentionally ignoring about 1/4 of the wizard's spell list to get there.
Example 4: The Know-It All vs. the Specialist
Hey, it's really important for the good of the party that you're an expert in healing and medicine. After all, it's important that characters get to live. So you max out ranks in healing, purchase good medical equipment to keep the party alive. But what you don't have - effective weapons or combat abilities. Skill ranks in persuasion or knowledge about politics. Maybe you can create a sedative to use on the enemy to help bolster the party? No, it doesn't work that way? Okay. You're essentially an NPC at this point. That other guy - the guy who got to take all the knowledge skills and can interact with roleplay and combat - that's the hero and you're just making it so he can have fun. The minute you dare open your mouth with your Charisma penalties, you've doomed the party to failure, you selfish jerk.
Yes, going out of your way to make a pacifist healer in a game about fighting monsters means you're not going to be as effective in combat. That's a character "build" problem. It's also worth noting that this isn't how D&D has actually worked since 3E. There are no ranks in skills. Haven't been since about 2008. In both 4E and 5E you have to work really, really hard to make a character who's not effective in combat.

A big note here: having social skills is not required to roleplay. You can roleplay with terrible social skills.

I think a secondary problem is you might be doing the "if it's not perfect, it sucks" thing where you decide ahead of time that only the character with the best stat+skill combo is allowed to make the check. That's not a game problem. That's a player mentality problem.
I hope these 4 Examples - which are ones I see almost weekly - illustrate how many RPGs do a poor job of maintaining fun for the majority of players throughout the session. I think your players would agree, if you asked them. For a hobby that purports to be cooperative, it really rewards solo design.
If you're seeing these weekly you need a new group and definitely a new referee. This is also one of the major reasons I play old-school games or extremely rules light games, they tend to bring out player creativity, lateral thinking, and puzzle solving.

There's also a bit of "always needing the spotlight" going on. The other characters get to shine, too. Not every character is going to be the star of every scene. If the referee is lingering on some character's spotlight time while glossing over others' spotlight time, that's a referee problem.
 
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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
While I have a hard time imagining how Eurogames' approach to randomness (randomized options with deterministic resolution) would apply to RPGs in general, it does occur to me that this could be an interesting approach to spellcaster class design. Imagine if a Sorcerer, for instance, chose some of their daily spells but had the remainder determined randomly.

More broadly, I think that RPG design could probably learn more from cooperative games like Pandemic or Spirit Island than from competitive games like Catan or Wingspan. And I think that many of the relevant lessons could be applied at the level of adventure/encounter design rather than at the level of overall game design.


Not that it's important to the overall discussion, but as an Agricola player, I hope the video includes some significant clarification/caveats regarding this point.
I'd toss a big ol word of caution at using cooperative games as examples. I have soured on them a bit over the years since the collective goal is often obvious, yet boring for an individual. Also, it tends to lead to one person barking orders at everyone and stepping on their toes. Another thing you can get is that cowboy that just goes rogue and does what is interesting to them personally, but screws the group objective.

The real point is that there is no magic design philosophy that protects from a bad experience. There will always be an element of player application to consider.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
A simple solution...

a. Let the character be effective in the role assigned in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting. If you're a wizard, you're good at magic.
Your examples in the post above go a long way to undermine this. Where being effective in their role is used against the characters and players.
b. Let the character be good at other things, not connected to the role in the party. So if you're a fighter, you're good at fighting AND (if you choose it) you are interested in the lore of noble houses - so you're also good at identifying nobles and you have a basic understanding of the Ps and Qs of social situations. Or you're a doctor who has dabbled in the Occult, so you can heal the party while helping point out weaknesses in supernatural creatures.
That's exactly what skills and backgrounds and feats do in 5E. You absolutely can have a noble-born fighter who's good with social situations or a wizard with the medicine skill. These two are also specifically things that can happen in DCC RPG. Other games like Cortex Prime, Fate, etc all let you make whatever kind of character you want.
In too many games you must sacrifice what you are obligated to do for the good of the game to have diversity in abilities. This shouldn't be a thing.
Do you have specific examples of games you're talking about?
 

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