Do Undead Still Have Souls?

[LuYangShih]

I really like most of the theories so far. I think I prefer to keep the Undead and Demons seperate, however, so I will discard the Demonic Parasite theory. I would like to keep Undead as unique as possible, instead of another type of fiend.


I am unsure as to whether or not I should keep the raising/animation of Undead an evil act. Should it be evil, or should it be moral free? Is creating an Undead a wicked act? Why would the animation of a creatures corpse torment the soul of the creature that once possessed it? And would such truths explain why burial is so important to most cultures in a fantasy world?

I also wonder what type of Undead are the true Lords Of Death. Vampires, or Liches? Vampires have great strength and powers, but they also have severe weaknesses. Liches would clearly be much rarer, but would generally be more powerful as well. If a nation existed where the Undead were the ruling force, would the heads of state be Vampires, or Liches? And what would the role of the other type of Undead be once one or the other had achieved dominance? Anyway, just a few questions.

 

[s/LaSH]

I am unsure as to whether or not I should keep the raising/animation of Undead an evil act. Should it be evil, or should it be moral free? Is creating an Undead a wicked act? Why would the animation of a creatures corpse torment the soul of the creature that once possessed it? And would such truths explain why burial is so important to most cultures in a fantasy world?

I surmise that's due to the negative energy that is somehow involved in the undead's life-force. Simply being near an undead is going to cause plants to wither, small insects to curl up and die, that sort of thing, just because there's this anti-life thing sitting there. A lot of undead in one place are going to cause a lot of destruction to the local ecosystem. And even if they become undead with the best of intentions, their whole being is now devoted to death, which will inevitably twist their minds towards evil.

Sound about right?

I also wonder what type of Undead are the true Lords Of Death. Vampires, or Liches? Vampires have great strength and powers, but they also have severe weaknesses. Liches would clearly be much rarer, but would generally be more powerful as well. If a nation existed where the Undead were the ruling force, would the heads of state be Vampires, or Liches? And what would the role of the other type of Undead be once one or the other had achieved dominance? Anyway, just a few questions.

A vamp is stronger (physical ability bonuses, that sort of thing). A lich is hardier (if you kill it, it phylacterises right back at ya). Logically, in an evil society, the one who survives assassination rules. And the lich is the best at that. However, the vampire is still going to be a power in the land. Look at Vecna and Kas - lord and general. A lich won't necessarily have the muscle to back up its authority unless it has some vampire underlings to fly off and do its bidding.

Other undead? The incorporeal types are probably high in the heirachy (and there will be a heirachy - some forms of undead are 'racially' superior to others, it's a statistical fact). Incorps are going to be walking through walls, spying on lesser beings (their touch attacks are largely useless against other undead), but a secret police who can call in vampires to tear rebellious zombies limb from limb is still a grade-A secret police.

The unwilled types (skellywags, zombies) will be mindless labourers, of course. The 'lower' corporeal types (ghouls, wights, that sorta thing) will be grunts, functionaries, your basic lower-middle class. They can put up a fuss if they get torn limb from limb - without reason. Then there would be the uniques... things like devourers and nightshades that you would rarely see even in an undead realm. Devourers, if present, are smart and powerful - they're likely to work directly for liches, as torturers and advisors.

Nightshades, on the other hand, are brutally smart and far more powerful than a mere lich, at least in physical terms - and a nightshade could very easily take on a lich with its energy resistances, magic detection and spell immunity. A nightshade of any type would probably be either a lone wolf causing havoc (chaotic evil, after all), shrugging off legions of undead grunts; a mercenary, a general without compare; or a ruler in its own right.

Imagine... a nightcrawler whose palace is a wide-open courtyard of earth where it lies buried and communicates with telepathy. It's going to know if anyone tries to get near it (tremorsense), and is virtually assassination-proof simply by that fact. Only incorps could reach it, and they'd have problems - DR 25/+3, to be precise. Incorporeal touch attacks just don't do that amount of damage. If the beast turns invisible and summons its own pack of spirits, the would-be assassin hasn't got a chance.

Hm, just thinking out loud there...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Alright, these seem to be the thoughts so far:

1. Undead are a type of Demonic Parasite that inhabits once living beings, suffusing them with Negative Energy and displacing their soul. The Buffyverse theory. The soul of the being that previously inhabited the body is now free, and probably in the Outer Planes somewhere.

2. Undead are another being of some kind, but in this theory, they are not Demonic, and the soul of the previous being is either trapped in the body (the 1E life force theory) or tormented by the knowledge of what has happened to them/their body.

3. Undead are the same being they always were, except that they now use negative energy to sustain their existence, instead of positive energy. If the Undead is ever killed, the soul is sent to the Negative Energy plane where a very nasty fate awaits them. You don't wanna be turned into Undead in a world where this theory is the law. Sigils Theory.

With a bit of thought, these three theories can easily co-exist in one campaign world. It would certainly make for an interesting world, and would give more scholarly-minded Necromancers plenty of lecture fodder.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I know that most people here have agreed that non-sentient undead do not have souls tied to them, however I'd like to assume they do.

The PHB says that you can only bring back an undead that has been destroyed first. It doesn't make any differentiation between sentient and non-sentient undead. If we take this as a premise, that means there is SOMETHING left in the undead that is required to recreate the person. Even the most powerful spells that can recreate the bodies from scratch still need you to destroy the undead first.

So here is my theory:

Mindless undead still have at least a piece of the soul tied to them. Maybe, since it isn't very powerful magic, it isn't enough to tie the entire soul to the body. It animates the body using negative energy and then ties just enough of the will power of the soul to the corpse for it to be able to move on its own.

In this case, that means that the more powerful the magic, the better it is at tieing the soul to the body. Thus, the magic of a vampire or lich is powerful enough that the soul fully becomes part of the undead, and it is just animated with negative energy instead of positive energy.

You can explain ghosts by saying that the soul WANTS to remain and therefore it uses its own willpower to grab on to negative energy as sort of an anchor to the material plane.

Of course, this theory has one problem. For mindless undead, if only part of the soul is bound to it, what happens to the rest of it? It is happily residing on an outer plane somewhere or trapped in limbo somewhere? Perhaps animating a creature as a mindless undead just weakens the petitioner somewhat. I guess it would have to be your decision in your own campaign.

In mine, I think I will assume the soul is trapped in limbo, or perhaps still within the corpse, just unable to exert any control. This helps explain why the spells are [evil]. Imagine a universe where even the lowliest mages had the power to imprison a soul from the afterlife. Where gods could not, or were not allowed to interfere with this process. It would explain why a lot of the good gods have their followers seek out and destroy the undead at all costs. The gods cannot stop mages from imprisioning the souls of their petitioners, but they can command their followers to release them.

Majoru Oakheart

 

[Malcolm]

!!! Good stuff folks!

I run a campaign world in which there are 2 very different and very distinctive cities/socieites run by the Undead. Both are unique in their presentation and how they function, but have similar advans and disadvans.

My theory to base the soul/mind/body argument for Undead is a mix of the 3 ColonelHardisson summed up.
Simply put: The mind, body, and soul are tied together in all living things in a mesh that blends them together; they are inseperable to some degrees and what affects one affects the others.
When living creatures are transformed into an Undead state (voluntarily or not) part of their soul is transfered to the Negative Plane (replaced by Neg energy), part of their mind is corrupted with the influence of outsiders (demons attempting easy access to a body with only parts of a soul to now defend itself), and part of the soul lingers to give energy to make the body work now that it cannot continue to do so.
The more powerful the magic/miracle used to Animate the Dead the greater this exchange of energy to the Negative Plane becomes and the more intelligent the Undead.

Various Undead:
1.) Un-intelligent Undead = Energy is used to simply hold the body together and function. The soul is in minor torment and put to rest when the body is destroyed. Otherwise with vast armies of Necromancers and Adventurers churning through Skeletons all the time, no souls could get to their final resting place without tons of True Ress and Miracles. The Negative Energy Plane would be full of souls...
2.) Intelligent Undead = Greater exchange of soul (Postive) energy with energy from the Negative Plane. More functions of the previous living creature are displayed; memories come back and in some cases the ability to wield magic. Ghosts themselves are "locked memories" that are keyed to one type of thought pattern, and pursue it until a set condition is satisfied. They and Spectres are the break-through point of Intelligent Undead from Ghoul to Vampire, Survivor to Changer. The lesser Intelligent Undead cannot learn (typically) but Vampires and Liche-types can gain skills, learn new feats, etc.
3.) NightShades (theory)= The Undead form of an Outsider, usually Abyssal but can be Infernal or even Celestial in origin. These beings swap power from the various Outer realms to the basic Negative, and the results are paid back heavily! This would lead to indicate that the Postive and Negative have a greater role than simply being Inner Planes..

As to the cities:
a.) One is a city where each section is ruled by an Undead Lord(s) who hold ultimate power over their specific Undead type. I.e. A Zombie Lord rules over a large collection of zombie-type creatures; the Vampires stick together, etc. There is no inter-mingling except by a few of the incorporeal Undead. The city is layered, being composed of 5 cities that were built over each other. The top is full of Zombies (mostly human), the next layer is an ancient Egyptian style genre of Mummies (drow), the 3rd is Vampires (mix) in an Eternal Garden, and the 4th is a domain of Liches (Dragons, Ogres, and some mix) who mainly just tinker. The 5th level is secret, sorry but I have players who read this and would love to find out!
b.) The other city is not segregated, but rather mixed heavily except ruled by castes. The Vampires make up one caste structure, and the Lich Lords the other. While the two sides must work together vs. outside forces, they are at odds with each other for power. This city has more of a Vampire-LARP flavor to it. Once again, the party hasn't ventured there so I'm loath to discuss much other than it is a very rich, very cultured city, which has a few mortal visitors (not all evil) who profit greatly from dealings with it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Possible mild spoiler for Hollowfaust below.


An interesting take on at least part of this subject can be found in Hollowfaust, a city sourcebook for the Scarred Lands. The general populace has been taught that the mindless undead (zombies and skeletons) are merely the vessels the souls of their loved ones once inhabited. This is an important point, because the necromancer rulers of that city use the bodies of the deceased citizenry as the city guards and workers. If the DM supposed that skeletons and zombies or any other animated undead still had the souls of the deceased, this would throw everything into a new light in that city. For example, what if this was a closely-guarded secret of the necromancers, who wished to maintain peace within the city - and the PCs found out?