Do you allow the detect (alignment) spells in your campaign?

[Maerdwyn]

Yes that is right, but would it be an evil act if it is an approved action? Look to history, religions have always had exceptions, cats where killed out of hand in the dark ages as they were see as evil and no one could find them listed anywhere in the bible. During the conquest of the Americas, people were wiped out because they worshipped a snake.

But what I'm saying is that a paladin has the *capability* of doing not only questionable things which are approved by his church or called "good" by the DM. Even a paladin who has been the epitome of goodness for every second of his life up to this moment could decide today to murder 19 babies and become a blackguard. Regardless of its likelihood, the *capability,* -- the *possibility*-- is there.

If the spell doesn't look at how a character has in fact behaved in the past, but rather only at the potential of how the character could possibly behave in the future (the capability to commit a listed evil act), every single creature with enough intelligence and free will to have an alignment in the first place should register as "evil," in fact "strong evil" (because every character has the capability of doing really, really bad things or of becoming a cleric of Iuz, etc.) to a Detect Evil Spell. If capability to commit evil acts is the mechanic by which the spell works, I'm just not sure how it could be a useful spell. IMHO, it's just not the way the spell should work.

 

[King_Stannis]

IMC, detect evil=detect evil INTENT.

 

[Carnifex]

I allow them as they are...

 

[Vaxalon]

(Detect Evil) just tells the PCs that the person in question is capable of evil acts, not that the man is planning to do something nasty right at that moment.

The way I use it, the spell detects the weight of sin on the soul. For those who have dedicated themselves to evil, that is, clerics and the like, that's a lot of sin. For those who *ARE* sin (evil outsiders) that's even more. For your average joe on the street malefactor, that's not so much.

The weight of sin on the soul is a product of three things; thoughts, words, and deeds. Evil thoughts, that is, harboring thoughts of doing or saying something evil, are pretty minor and easily overcome by good deeds. Someone whose only sin is that of thought will only register as evil if he never does much that's good. Evil words are more serious, as they involve infecting others with those evil thoughts. Evil deeds are the worst, because they finally make those evil thoughts manifest in the world.

As a result, alignment is not so much a measure of capability, of potential, as it is of history. If you do evil things, you become evil. If you do chaotic things, you become chaotic. I may be completely wrong here, but I believe that this is pretty much the mainstream... alignment has to do with what you've done historically rather than what you intend, but what you intend has influence too, as evil intentions are sins of thought.

 

[Vaxalon]

IMC, detect evil=detect evil INTENT.

So a sleeping 20th level babykiller blackguard detects as neutral?

 

[Maerdwyn]

The way I use it, the spell detects the weight of sin on the soul. For those who have dedicated themselves to evil, that is, clerics and the like, that's a lot of sin. For those who *ARE* sin (evil outsiders) that's even more. For your average joe on the street malefactor, that's not so much.

So would killing some unknown person outright be justified IYC, so long as they had sufficient evil weighing on their soul? (Such as in the case of a sleeping baby killing blackguard who hadn't been identified as such other than by a detect evil spell)

 

[Hand of Evil]

But what I'm saying is that a paladin has the *capability* of doing not only questionable things which are approved by his church or called "good" by the DM. Even a paladin who has been the epitome of goodness for every second of his life up to this moment could decide today to murder 19 babies and become a blackguard. Regardless of its likelihood, the *capability,* -- the *possibility*-- is there.

If the spell doesn't look at how a character has in fact behaved in the past, but rather only at the potential of how the character could possibly behave in the future (the capability to commit a listed evil act), every single creature with enough intelligence and free will to have an alignment in the first place should register as "evil," in fact "strong evil" (because every character has the capability of doing really, really bad things or of becoming a cleric of Iuz, etc.) to a Detect Evil Spell. If capability to commit evil acts is the mechanic by which the spell works, I'm just not sure how it could be a useful spell. IMHO, it's just not the way the spell should work.

"No one knows the evil that lurks in the hearts of man."

What we are talking about is a game, not the real world. As a game it is our duty as DMs to define the world for the players. We set the law down for them and we then rule on it. Is vengance allowed, how about fueding, or dueling, were guilds (the paying for accidental death), and so much more.

If the DM does not define what is evil you have issues. The players then have to work with actions. In your example, could a LG paladin perform an evil act, yes but a cost, it should be a gaming momment.

see page 144 of the DMG

 

[Maerdwyn]

"No one knows the evil that lurks in the hearts of man."

What we are talking about is a game, not the real world. As a game it is our duty as DMs to define the world for the players. We set the law down for them and we then rule on it. Is vengance allowed, how about fueding, or dueling, were guilds (the paying for accidental death), and so much more.

If the DM does not define what is evil you have issues. The players then have to work with actions. In your example, could a LG paladin perform an evil act, yes but a cost, it should be a gaming momment.

see page 144 of the DMG

OF course there would be consequences, and it would be a gaming moment - and I never mentioned anything remotely close to the real world . But the possibilty for those gaming moments exists - else why have special rules for paladins becoming blackguards? Under your system for detect evil, the fact that that possibility exists would seem to indicate that everyone registers as evil for the purpose of a detect evil spell, because any character is capable of becoming evil by committing evil acts.

 

[SableWyvern]

So would killing some unknown person outright be justified IYC, so long as they had sufficient evil weighing on their soul? (Such as in the case of a sleeping baby killing blackguard who hadn't been identified as such other than by a detect evil spell)

I would have no problem with this IMC.

As long as the players realised that detection spells are not always correct; that even when they are they don't always tell the whole story (maybe he's not really a blackguard baby killer, but an innocent, virgin princess polymorphed into a man and possessed by a terribly malevolent spirit); and that killing unidentified people in their sleep based on evilness can lead to the destruction of plot hooks designed to provide great aid to the PCs (he may wish to turn on his demon master and offer the PCs their only plausible way of defeating said demon master).

IOW, I would hope players wont do this for the simple reason that it's STUPID. Of course, relying on players not to do stupid things is a little idealistic, but you get the point.

 

[Fenes]

Other: I have those spells, but I take precautions to prevent them from ruining any intrigue-adventure.