Do you get to save vs. an effect before it harms you?

[Rel]

This came up the other night and I was curious if there is an official ruling.

Say a monster has a basic attack that does Ongoing 5 Poison damage (save ends). A PC provokes an Opportunity Attack from the monster on the PC's turn (obviously). The attack hits and the PC is poisoned. But then, at the end of the PC's turn, they make the save vs. the Poison. Are they not allowed to make the save because it wasn't in effect at the start of their turn? Or do they get a free pass on that effect?

 

[FireLance]

I'd say they get to make the save because you save against conditions at the end of your turn, and I can't find anything in the rules which states that you have to be affected by a condition at the start of your turn before you can save against it at the end.

Specifically, the rules (from the Compedium glossary) state:

Saving Throws
End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end.

Ongoing Damage
Saving Throw: Each round at the end of your turn, make a saving throw against ongoing damage. If you succeed, you stop taking the ongoing damage.​

I don't see it as being any different from being hit by the monster on its turn and then being given a saving throw by an ally (e.g. a paladin's channel divinity: divine mettle or a cleric's sacred flame, or a Heal check) before the start of your next turn.

 

[Nifft]

Yep. Like FireLance said, the rules absolutely support you being able to save against an effect at the end of your turn, even if the effect would do nothing until the start of your next turn -- and I don't recall any official rulings to the contrary.

Some OAs rider effects are absolutely brutal (like being Immobilized just as you try to leave your square), while others are no big deal (like ongoing damage that you save against).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Obryn]

I've always run it that they get a free chance to save, if it's something that normally hits them at the start of their turn.

It's not really a consistent rule, mind you. It's a fluke of the turn order. If you house-ruled to make ongoing damage effects you receive on your turn automatically affect you immediately, you probably wouldn't break anything.

-O

 

[Nifft]

It's not really a consistent rule, mind you. It's a fluke of the turn order.

This is certainly true: it is a fluke of the turn order.

However, there are other potential OA status effects (e.g. Slow, Dazed, Prone, Blinded) which might hose your chosen action utterly, so I figure it's a wash.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rel]

Ok that's good to know. In the event we played that they had to be effected by it at least once but it didn't cause any PC deaths or anything so no foul.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is actually a disadvantage of basic attacks that assign ongoing damage.

Do note: I am not saying this is a disadvantage of the game. But the monster isn't as terrible for their OAs, which means they aren't as stick.

Contrast this with a monster who marks, or immobilizes as part of its basic...

Now, a different story.

 

[Jhaelen]

This is actually a disadvantage of basic attacks that assign ongoing damage.

I'd say it's a disadvantage of effects with (save ends). Oddly enough I find effects that last until the start or end of a creature's next turn more scary than (save ends) effects.

There are so many ways to get extra saves but very few ways to get rid of or ignore the effects themselves. That's one reason I like the new Paladin ability in DP.

I wonder if there shouldn't be a rule that a (save ends) power will always affect you at least once.

 

[Turtlejay]

I have noticed this. It is almost as sad to throw out that single target ability that applies a (save ends) and have them save first shot as it is to miss entirely.

I was hesitant to chime in with this at first, becuase there is no rule that really applies here, so it seems pretty obvioius that you would get to save since specific trumps general, and genrally you save for everything at the end of your turn. I would have felt silly if there were some CS ruling about it or sommat, so I let a braver soul take the plunge. I'll add my voice to the chorus now, though. You should get a save.

Jay

 

[renau1g]

Save ends are even less effective against the warden...