Do you like spell and effect durations?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

More specifically. Spell Durations expressed in time units like rounds, minutes, hours and so on?

I am asking because I don't. 4E had largely done away with them - stuff lasted either one encounter, or until the start or end of someone's turn, until a save occured, or until you ended an effect. There are some rituals that break these rules.

As a dungeon master, I do not like having to track precise time. I care about stuff like days usually, but I don't really want to think about how long some moments of exploration + combat + looting take to answer my player's question whether there buffs are still up or not.

I would prefer a different approach to all durations - I would like to determine their endings by tracking events, not time.
With events I mean stuff like
1) A Hit or Miss
2) A character's turn starting or ending.
3) A specific, actively declared activity (I end effect X, or I activate a new effect that will end the previous one)
4) A rest time.

All stuff that either I or the player directly control and narrate.

So, for example:

• Mage Armor: Lasts until you take an extended rest or drop unconscious.
• Shield: Lasts until you have been missed 5 times by melee or ranged attacks.
• Divine Favor: Lasts until you have hit with 10 melee or ranged attacks or have taken an extended rest.
• Fly: Lasts until you have taken damage equal to twice your level, cast another spell, until you take an extended rest or drop unconscious.
• Polymorph: Lasts until you cast another spell or take an extended rest.
• Resist Energy: Lasts until you have taken 30 damage. (assuming that Resist Energy still reduces damage by some amount - anything exceeding the DR will slowly erode the protection)

A more elaborate example based on my idea the dreaded animal buff spell series from 3E, incorporating another player's idea on how to combine them:


[sblock]
Aspect of Nature

Duration: 24 hours or until the target or you takes an extended rest.
Pick one of the following benefits:

Cat's Grace

While this spell lasts, the character takes half damage from falling. 3 Times during the duration, he can use it gain one of the following benefits:

• Take no damage from a fall and land on his feet.
• Take half damage from a melee, ranged or area attack
• Reroll one dexterity check or save

If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.

Bull's Strenth
The target gains advantage on any checks to force open a door, or to push or pull something. He can carry twice his normal load in weight.
3 Times in the duration, he can use it to gain one of the follwoing benefits

• Deal +1d10 damage on a successful melee attack
• Double the length and height of one jump
• Reroll one strength check or save.

If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.

Camel's Endurance (Bear doesn't really make sense, does it?)
The spell provides enough sustenance in food and water for one day to the target. 3 Times during the duration, he can use it to gain one of the following benefits:

• Regain additional 1d6 additional hit points when spending a hit die
• Take only half damage from an attack
• Reroll one constitution check or save.

If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.


Fox Cunning
The character has advantage on all knowledge related skill checks.
3 Times during the duration, he can use it to gain one of the following benefits:

• Gain combat advantage for one attack against a chose enemy.
• Grant an ally combat advantage for one attack against a chosen enemy.
• Reroll one intelligence check or save. If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.

If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.

Owl's Wisdom
The character has advantage on all checks to intuit the motives and emotion state of other creatures. 3 Times during the duration, he can use it to gain one of the following benefits:

• Ignore the surprised condition
• Reroll one knowledge related check.
• Reroll one wisdom check or save.

If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.


Eagle's Splendor
The character has advantage on his first charisma check against an individual.

• Force an enemy to make a Charisma Save (DC equal to 10 + target's Charisma modifier) to be able to attack the character with a melee or ranged attack or a spell. This can be used only once per target.
• Reroll one charisma check or save. If the character has used 3 of these abilities, the spell ends.

[/sblock]

 

[Someone]

I'm not a fan of durations that require extended bookkeeping either, but in any case the worst f the worst were those that depended on level. They had the unfortunate result of being underpowered when they were the most potent spells available (a summon that lasts 1 round, for example) and becoming much useful later on when their cost is trivial (2nd level spells that lasted the best part of the day at higher levels)

 

[Yora]

Spells given in rounds/level usually last for the entire encounter, but won't last until the next one. So the duration "encounter" works well enough.

Spells given as 10 minutes/level will usually last for the entire dungeon or battle, but won't last beyond that. So their duration could be defined as that as well.

And spells that have their duration in hours will likely last for the entire adventuring day, so the duration "rest of the day" is good enough.

This does not apply to all spells, but I think easily 90% of all spells would work better that way.
Spells like cause fear or hold person would probably be better to be kept as rounds/level, but that's not very many. Only keep track of rounds where it really matters.

 

[Li Shenron]

Do you like spell and effect durations?

Generally speaking, yes.

Keeping track of round-based durations is actually quite fun for me, it becomes a problem only when there are too many spells active at the same time.

However for durations longer than rounds, I have mostly adjudicated them quite freely. I think being too precise is generally useless outside combat.

Shield: Lasts until you have been missed 5 times by melee or ranged attacks.
...
Fly: Lasts until you have taken damage equal to twice your level, cast another spell, until you take an extended rest or drop unconscious.

Counting missed attacks or damage taken is certainly more complicated than counting rounds... it's an interesting alternative but it would become a burden at a much earlier level than round-based durations. It would be perfect for a CRPG tho...

 

[Croesus]

Counting missed attacks or damage taken is certainly more complicated than counting rounds... it's an interesting alternative but it would become a burden at a much earlier level than round-based durations. It would be perfect for a CRPG tho...

Agreed. The OP has simply changed duration from time units to some other unit of measure. The problem still exists. In fact, the problem is worse, because his examples have some abilities using hp damage, others number of times hit, some depend on level, some don't. Perhaps he simply intended to show the various possibiliites, but such a mishmash would be a nightmare to track.

That said, durations can be made simpler. Examples:
-When taking an extended rest
-When unconscious or asleep
-Taking certain actions (such as invisibility traditionally dropping when the character attacks)
-Subject to certain actions (such as taking damage)

Are these better than tracking time units? For some groups, yes, for others no. I can live with either, so long as the designers keep it simple and standardized.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I would prefer a different approach to all durations - I would like to determine their endings by tracking events, not time.

I prefer this, within reason -- I hate fiddly bookkeeping that doesn't seamlessly integrate to the game. Time doesn't do that; neither did the old D&D standby "turns". I don't want to have to count number of hits and misses, though -- that's just substituting another counting mechanic. The problem with some of the methods the OP suggests is that when a PC has multiple spells in effect, you have to have a tracking system somewhere to keep track of each individual effect.

For spells, I'd just prefer instantaneous, 1-round, 1 encounter, and "all day" (spell ends at sunrise or sunset, depending on when cast), and permanent. There can be separate rituals for multi-day durations.

I know some will complain that that approach means that spells have variable duration; I'm fine with that. I don't expect spells that you can set a watch by -- "it's magic" is sufficient explanation for why a wizard's mage armor goes "pop" at sunset even if he just cast it five minutes prior.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am not a big fan of the sheer number of effects that require tracking.

I would much prefer it if mage armor and its ilk simply lasted the whole day.

Occasional spells with a short duration create interesting tactical choices. I prefer that this duration be in objective time units, but be static, not level-based, so that the caster level swings things less.

 

[Zustiur]

Do I like spell and effect durations? Yes
Do I like having to track them? No
Do I like some of your ideas? Yes
Do I see the same problems others have already highlighted? Yes.

I think you're on the right track, but your examples may need some work.
'Until extended rest' is fine
'until rendered unconscious' is fine
These are both major events
Even 'until the end of the encounter' is fine in theory, but see all the early 4E arguments over what constitutes an encounter.
I echo Yora's complaint about TimePeriod/Level duration. I'd be happy to see that and 'Distance/Level' disappear from most, if not all, spells. Spells like teleport make distance/level seem appropriate however.

I'd be interested to test 'until concentration is broken' alongside 'sustain' for a lot of spells. For instance, 'Fly' would seem a lot less powerful if the wizard could only ever maintain it for one character at a time. You could even add in 'so long as the recipient remains in sight and spell range' for that example.

Hmmm. More cogitation required.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Some good problems mentioned. It reminds me of the problem of immediate actions in 4E, really - too many possible triggers. The "count attacks" (against you or made by you, based on hit or miss possibly) would probably lead to a mess that became even harder to track.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I really like how this was done in 4E, for the most part.

Short-duration negative effects last one turn.

Long-duration negative effects last until a saving throw is made.

Short-duration positive effects last one turn.

Long-duration positive effects last as long as they are sustained.

Some powerful effects of both types last until the end of the encounter.

Nice and simple, though I'd almost simplify it more by removing the "one turn" effects and putting more into the saving throw and sustain categories. Both of those are much easier to track than 3E-style durations, and they allow for more interesting choices and mechanics (like the Warden's Font of Life ability). I would hope that 5E would keep this system.