D&D 1E Do you miss Demons and Devils?

[Greggy C]

I do.

Maybe its just the "memory" of them. But first of all the Monster Manual I and II artwork was fantastic, loved it. And the descriptions ! Just blew my 18yo mind of the intrigue and politics between the dukes hell or demon princes.

Secondly by the time my group were fighting them it was on an outer plane, and that was SCARY. You lost 2 points from your swords, armor, rings of protection, meaning some weapons might not even hurt a demon. Their magic resistance was very scary to the magic users in your party. It was just such an awesome time. Of course I kept the names of the demons/devils as we moved into 2e, Tannari whatever was dumb.

Now in 5e, the demons are every so blah, with mundane stats, bags of hit points. Yawn.
I feel offended that the Glabrezu is a generic CR 9 monster, barely above a huge giant crab.

 

[Mezuka]

5e demons do have magic resistance (advantage which is better than 60%), other resistances and immunities. 4 attacks or 2 attacks and 1 spell are very good. Barely above a giant crab really? Just no. Also, 5e Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has a lot of demon lore if you want to learn about politics.

The scariest thing about 1e demons, that you do not mention, are the psionic powers! Being able to summon lesser demons is also very dangerous for the party.

In 5e you can give a creature Legendary Actions to add these abilities. CR would go up. House rules, rules! Surprise your players!

 

[Greggy C]

5e demons do have magic resistance

No, no that is no where near the same! In 1e/2e they make the magic resistance it 100% negates the effect, meteor swarm? no damage.

Barely above a giant crab really?

As in a "huge giant crab" is CR 8

psionic powers!

I remember them having it, I don't remember how strong it was, will have to examine it again.

In 5e you can give a creature Legendary Actions to add these abilities. CR would go up. House rules, rules! Surprise your players!

Well I can make a sheep as deadly as Anthraxus, but thats neither here nor there.

I will have to get the 1e simulator rolling and compare a demon prince fight on the outer planes (with minions) in 1e to 5e. I suspect that in 5e you just roll over them compared to 1e.

 

[TerraDave]

Hmm, making a Graz'zt (MMII) to Graz'zt (MToF) comparison...

5E Graz'zt actually has more flavor text. The MMII description is pretty focused, with MToF extrapolating, especially on his pretty demon prince image. (It would be interesting to compare to the original description in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth bonus booklet, AKA the Demonicon, but I don't have that here)

Classic Graz'zt has reduced damage from certain attacks, can only be hit by magic weapons, and has 70% MR. This means that an 11th level caster has a 70% chance of spell failure, an 12th level on 65%, and so on. He would also have very good saves.

5E Graz'zt has reduced damage from certain attacks, can only be hit by magic weapons, and has MR. For characters in their teen levels, this is probably a wash. Saves were probably better for classic Graz'zt, but 5e Graz'zt does also have condition immunities, and legendary resistance. In practice, both would be able to brush off a number of otherwise devastating spells.

Each attacks with a big acidic sword. Its a little unclear how many times a round classic Graz'zt could attack (6 times?), but with legendary actions, 5e Graz'zt can attack 5 times over the round.

Classic Graz'zt has an amazing AC (-9) and so so HP 186. All those magical defenses are key, but also high level warriors in 1E are really good at hitting, and will have magic items, including strength boosters. 5e Graz'zt has OK AC (20) and HP 346. So again, his other defenses are key, as is his ability to charm or otherwise takeout out opponents has very important.

Each has several magical abilities. 5e Graz'zt puts more emphasis on charm and domination. His save DC of 23 is pretty nice.

Classic Graz'zt can gate in allies. Its a big deal.

Overall, not a huge difference. And it would be very easy to add back a few of the things that classic Graz'zt has, including demon summoning, maybe a few more spells, and a big shield to get that AC up!

 

[Retreater]

I was thinking just last night about how 5e monsters in general don't seem as frightening or as unique as their previous edition counterparts. This could be due to my being less impressionable and more jaded towards gaming than I was in my youth, when I was less experienced and everything had a feeling of wonder to it.
I remember facing a mummy in AD&D, and it was terrifying. We lost a character to mummy rot, as he slowly rotted away weeks after the combat. Now it seems very easy to make the save and easy to cure. I haven't seen a single character contract mummy rot in 5e. Mummies feel like zombies with more hit points.

 

[Greggy C]

I was thinking just last night about how 5e monsters in general don't seem as frightening or as unique as their previous edition counterparts. This could be due to my being less impressionable and more jaded towards gaming than I was in my youth, when I was less experienced and everything had a feeling of wonder to it.
I remember facing a mummy in AD&D, and it was terrifying. We lost a character to mummy rot, as he slowly rotted away weeks after the combat. Now it seems very easy to make the save and easy to cure. I haven't seen a single character contract mummy rot in 5e. Mummies feel like zombies with more hit points.

When I DM'd in the 1e/2e days, every session would end with what they call now a "boss fight" which would consist of some baddie protected by numerous minions. I would put down the DM screen and show all the dice roll, which would put everyone on edge because they know this is the fight that is carefully balanced and they have to play their best to win.

When the attacked the main villain, and roll a 14 and I say "miss" this would elicit gasps and damnations as they know its not going to be easy.
As everyone is almost dead, one dead (until resurrection), and their dual wielding elven fighter, rolls a 17 and 18, I stare at my page with disappointment, and a cheer goes up as I shake my head and say that he dies from the final thrusts.... a cheer goes up...

Just not the same in 5e where 50% of attacks hit regardless.

 

[steeldragons]

Miss them? Where did they go? Mine never left.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

They never left, so nothing to miss.

 

[Greggy C]

They never left, so nothing to miss.

when you only read the title lul

 

[nevin]

I miss how freaking deadly they were in 1e. They could gate in others who could gate in others. summoning a mid to high level Devil could result in an army from the lower planes suddenly in your back yard.