Do YOU nod to "realism"?

[keterys]

Quite frankly, I don't see how you can avoid using a 4E power unrealistically. Some are rather neutral and others like the fighter's come and get it or the paladin's divine challenge kick realism (or whatever similar word you want to use for it) to the curb. I think the best you can do is pick powers that aren't as silly, and avoid classes with stupid (unrealistic) class features (the paladin).

So, Come and Get It is the poster child for unrealism... but what's with the paladin hate? They're usually the example of a way to do the wacky thing (damage on breaking mark) in a way that fits the narrative.

Like people are usually okay with Knight's Defiance or similar over Come and Get It. "Magic" is the great excuse and divine magic extra so.

 

[talok55]

I don't have anything against paladin's. What I dislike is that 4E paladins have a class ability that is so gamist and absurd that it clearly exists only to make the paladin fit into the defender role. I have no problem with paladin's challenging someone or smiting foes with holy power. What I have a problem with is the he only smites something with his divine laser beams if it attacks someone besides him. That makes no sense. Smite things with your holy power all the time! This, I'll hit you with divine power only if you attack someone besides me nonsense, is taking the gamist dial to 11. I'll pass on things like that

 

[OpsKT]

There are Dragons, Magic, and a very possible end of your life is becoming a God.

Where the ever loving frak does 'realism' come into that kind of game?

 

[FireLance]

Quite frankly, I don't see how you can avoid using a 4E power unrealistically.

I take it that the punchline is something along the lines of, "Because none of it is actually real?"

"Some are rather neutral and others like the fighter's come and get it or the paladin's divine challenge kick realism (or whatever similar word you want to use for it) to the curb. I think the best you can do is pick powers that aren't as silly, and avoid classes with stupid (unrealistic) class features (the paladin).

I think a more accurate statement would be, the vast majority of 4e powers are rather neutral, but there are some people who have trouble with a handful of them. Feel free to fill in whatever powers you care to name, but bear in mind that your issues may not be objective or universal.

 

[talok55]

There are Dragons, Magic, and a very possible end of your life is becoming a God.

Where the ever loving frak does 'realism' come into that kind of game?

You don't have to get hung up on the word "realism". You can use internally consistent, versimilitude, believable, logical, etc. As has been seen before in these types of discussions, whatever synonym I use for this, someone will have a different definition of it than I do. Whatever you want to call it, there are many mechanical aspects of 4E that have a complete absence of this. 4e, for the most part, does not bother to even nod at realism. It shoves metagamey mechanics in your face, so that it is really hard to get immersed in the game. Some people don't have a problem with this. For others, it's a big issue. I'm not asking for the game to realistically simulate everything, but I would like for a characters abilities to not be so absurd (such as come and get it) that they leave you shaking your head saying, "That makes absolutely no sense. How is that supposed to work?" It seems from this discussion, that there are many others that feel the same way. It's hard for me to believe that PC's and villains having abilities that make sense within the context of the way the fictional D&D world (and, even though there is magic and dragons, this does include some of what may be termed "realism") works hurts the game. I also fail to see how having nonsensical abilities that clearly exist only for some metagame reason such as, to make x class a better fit for the defender role, helps the game.

 

[Phaezen]

Quite frankly, I don't see how you can avoid using a 4E power unrealistically. Some are rather neutral and others like the fighter's come and get it or the paladin's divine challenge kick realism (or whatever similar word you want to use for it) to the curb. I think the best you can do is pick powers that aren't as silly, and avoid classes with stupid (unrealistic) class features (the paladin).

Come and Get It can be described fairly realistically:

Come and Get it

"Rogar, we need the orcs to bunch up so my spell may be most effective" Sindel called out.

Rogar nodded and flexed calling out to the creatures in their language "Come at me you runts none of you are worthy of calling yourselves warriors"

Unable to resist the challenge several of the orcs closes to Rogar ran screaming at him, slicing at each other in their haste to avenge the insult.

- covers pulling creatures, the creatures being damaged and using strength vs will.

 

[GameOgre]

Seems to me some of you guys saying Realism really mean (not stupid).

Like someone grabing green slim or useing burning hands while in a room stuffed with gunpowder.

I don't use hardly any realism in my games but I do try and not be stupid. Just because there isn't a rule for drowning in lamp oil doesn't mean you can't drown in it.

But every DM will have a differant take on whats stupid.

Just because I think you can't grab green slim with your hands doesn't mean every DM needs to make green slim ungrabable. We all do our best for our games but almost never agree one what best means.

Thats cool.Whatever works for you!

In my game I do try and make it fun first and maybe give a nod towards some strange inner versimilitude but it isn't much more than a nod.

I do try and not let things get to the point where I feel we are being stupid. Just because the power says you can move strait ahead 4 squares doesnt mean you can move through that wall or stand on water!

But at the same time I am not sweating it if you somehow flip a monster on its back even though he is four times bigger than you.

See my *Stupid* point is differant than yours!

 

[Arctic Wolf]

There are Dragons, Magic, and a very possible end of your life is becoming a God.

Where the ever loving frak does 'realism' come into that kind of game?

Before I quote this, I would just like to say that I basically consider D&D to be another dimension and somehow everything got exactly right for all this to happen ( I don't know the % but I know it is extremely nonexistent lol). This explains the dragons part I guess heh.

Ok back to the quote. Magic to me is bascially using your mind to convert the matter around you into the type of damage you are trying to do. And a God in D&D is just having enough of this mind power to not die from aging. There might be some loopholes left open in there but I'm too tired to think about it more deeply.

 

[talok55]

That's fine for aggressive humanoids like orcs or gnolls, where it makes some sense for them to charge up to someone taunting them. It breaks down when the enemy is mindless skeletons, an ooze, or a enemy spellcaster that knows it's a bad idea to come and stand next to the fighter. If the power only worked on things that it made some sense for it to work on, that's acceptable, but I really don't see how the fighter is going to taunt an ooze, or convince that wizard with no melee skills that he should waltz right up to the fighter.

 

[talok55]

Seems to me some of you guys saying Realism really mean (not stupid).

Like someone grabing green slim or useing burning hands while in a room stuffed with gunpowder.

I don't use hardly any realism in my games but I do try and not be stupid. Just because there isn't a rule for drowning in lamp oil doesn't mean you can't drown in it.

But every DM will have a differant take on whats stupid.

Just because I think you can't grab green slim with your hands doesn't mean every DM needs to make green slim ungrabable. We all do our best for our games but almost never agree one what best means.

Thats cool.Whatever works for you!

In my game I do try and make it fun first and maybe give a nod towards some strange inner versimilitude but it isn't much more than a nod.

I do try and not let things get to the point where I feel we are being stupid. Just because the power says you can move strait ahead 4 squares doesnt mean you can move through that wall or stand on water!

But at the same time I am not sweating it if you somehow flip a monster on its back even though he is four times bigger than you.

See my *Stupid* point is differant than yours!

That's a good way to put it. Maybe saying not stupid, not silly, or not nonsensical is a more succinct way to explain it.