Sir ThornCrest
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yes!
spunkrat said:Can a Dragon cast spells while silenced?
Do you play Dragons in lair, right??
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Saeviomagy said:
Yup. It's tough to think like a dragon, since so few of
Yup. It's tough to think like a dragon...
I see your reason that the dragon stayed in te lair. He was a gatekeeper for the fortress, so he couldn´t just leave and the controlling demon thought of him as expendable resources.
I think your problem was that the dragon accidentally attacked the parties strong point, their reflex saves and evasion abilty, also the the cleric had cold immunity.
Your party attacked the dragon at his weak points with fireballs and brilliant energy arrows. They could also concentrate on him as he had no mooks to disperse the damage and got lucky rolls. They took the offense from the dragon and he could regain it. So he was toast fast.
I think your problem was that the dragon accidentally attacked the parties strong point, their reflex saves and evasion abilty, also the the cleric had cold immunity.
Your party attacked the dragon at his weak points with fireballs and brilliant energy arrows. They could also concentrate on him as he had no mooks to disperse the damage and got lucky rolls. They took the offense from the dragon and he could regain it. So he was toast fast.
OK, Sir T, I'm going to try to be constructive. Reading through your story, I've got a few serious questions.
Why was he stunned? Is this a house rule you have? AFAIK, there's no reason why getting hit by a Fireball, even a big one, will stun a creature. Either (a) he takes fewer HP in damage than he currently has, and he just keeps right on going, or (b) he takes more HP in damage than he currently has, and he dies.
I have no idea why you ruled that he couldn't cast his spells. Taking damage during casting *does* force a Concentration check, but, as far as I can tell from your story, the dragon wasn't actually casting yet when he was hit by the Fireball. By the time it was the dragon's turn, the damage from the Fireball was over and done with. It should have had *no impact* on the dragon's ability to cast his spells.
Same issue. I think you're misunderstanding what forces a Concentration check. Only damage taken *while the caster is actually casting the spell* forces a Concentration check. It doesn't matter if he's taken a zillion HP of damage earlier in the round; as long as nothing's pestering him *during his action*, he won't have an issue with casting a spell.
And, again, you talk about the dragon being "stunned" and "staggered" -- by what, exactly? Simply taking HP of damage doesn't do that, by the rules. To stun or stagger a creature, you need to hit them with an effect that specifically states it does this.
To sum up: why was this dragon a pushover?
- Yes, your players used some weapons and spells that were particularly effective.
- It looks to me like you've got some sort of house rule about being stunned after taking lots of damage, which seriously nerfed the dragon.
- It also looks like you were making him make Concentration checks to cast his spells, when he didn't need to.
Sir ThornCrest said:
Why was he stunned? Is this a house rule you have? AFAIK, there's no reason why getting hit by a Fireball, even a big one, will stun a creature. Either (a) he takes fewer HP in damage than he currently has, and he just keeps right on going, or (b) he takes more HP in damage than he currently has, and he dies.
Sir ThornCrest said:
I have no idea why you ruled that he couldn't cast his spells. Taking damage during casting *does* force a Concentration check, but, as far as I can tell from your story, the dragon wasn't actually casting yet when he was hit by the Fireball. By the time it was the dragon's turn, the damage from the Fireball was over and done with. It should have had *no impact* on the dragon's ability to cast his spells.
Sir ThornCrest said:
Same issue. I think you're misunderstanding what forces a Concentration check. Only damage taken *while the caster is actually casting the spell* forces a Concentration check. It doesn't matter if he's taken a zillion HP of damage earlier in the round; as long as nothing's pestering him *during his action*, he won't have an issue with casting a spell.
And, again, you talk about the dragon being "stunned" and "staggered" -- by what, exactly? Simply taking HP of damage doesn't do that, by the rules. To stun or stagger a creature, you need to hit them with an effect that specifically states it does this.
To sum up: why was this dragon a pushover?
- Yes, your players used some weapons and spells that were particularly effective.
- It looks to me like you've got some sort of house rule about being stunned after taking lots of damage, which seriously nerfed the dragon.
- It also looks like you were making him make Concentration checks to cast his spells, when he didn't need to.
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Random useful information: At the level you're playing at, nearly any spell that gives a reflex save is useless, or there is a better option. HP damage from spells is the worst way to go, especially since you have your claws/etc for damage. Use the spells to debilitate and weaken, then kill with claws. An appropriate CR dragon who gets in a full attack on anyone other than a super tank is bound to do serious serious damage. Use the spells to enable that course of action, don't try to rely on only the spells themselves.
BSF
Explorer
Running high level D&D can be tricky. From the other threads I have read by Sir_Throncrest, it doesn't sound like he has access to the books. They are at another player's house.
Frankly, I generally don't allow material that I don't have. *shrug* The players don't have to like it. As I have stated in a previous thread, make the players do all the homework on strengths/weaknesses/killer combos on material they want to use. Make them sell you on why it will be good for the game.
But that is neither here nor there. You have established that you are using material that appears to be problematic for you to balance against. You have established that you are running a game with a lot of magical equipment. Your players seem to min/max a lot. These are the parameters of your game.
Why did the dragon fall so quickly? Well frankly the dragon didn't use very strong tactics.
He is a guardian right? He is possessed. Presumably the demon and the Dread Emperor know the weaknesses of the form. Anybody coming through that tunnel should be expecting a white dragon. So they will be buffed to handle cold damage. Energy substitution on the breath weapon (Dragonomicon) would convert that to something like, acid. No biggie though. Breath weapons are either devastating or not. In this case, the party has a lot of evasion. So a breath weapon isn't a strong attack. The dragon couldn't know that though. So using breath weapon is a good opener tactic from a non min/max perspective.
But using breath weapon and staying in the same place is not a good tactic. Why? Because a dragon's strength is really in mobility. But the demon doesn't care and is somewhat arrogant. Bad decision through arrogance and apathy is no big deal.
The dragon dim doored to the other side of the gate? OK. No melee for either side then. Of course, aside from mobility, dragons are also good at melee. This assures that the dragon will rely on spells. Might make sense for a demon I suppose. But the dragon has already moved so he isn't flat-footed. The Arcane trickster tried to walk through the gate and cast spells? If I were the dragon, I would have used an AOO on the moving Arcane Trickster. Maybe a grapple? Or a bite, but probably a grapple. After all, it is what a demon would think of. Just because the AT has init doesn't mean the dragon is flat footed. He should have done something about the AT. Especially if he was smaller than normal. "Bite sized"
I am assuming that the PCs all made their frightful presence saves? It's only a DC 25, so it si likely that PCs of this level would make it.
As Kenobi65 mentions above, why was the dragon stunned and staggered? Which rules have you added that bring this about?
Why didn't the dragon move back before casting the quickened wall of ice/Fireball? No reason why he should have been caught by his spell. As well, why would that ruin other spells? Or am I mis-reading that entirely?
Without knowing all the capabilities of the dragon and the layout of the lair, I can't offer ways that the dragon would have lasted longer. To me it sounds like you tried to play the dragon/demon in character and were taken a little by surprise at how effectively the party retaliated. Not necessarily a bad thing, especially if this wasn't supposed to be a capstone combat. But the dragon's tactics did not fully utilize the advantages of a dragon's abilities. A start with a freezing fog would have been much more effective for an opener. It would cause the PCs to start making balance checks and would have made ranged combat problematic. You didn't use bad tactics, especially for the character of the NPC. But you could have opened with stronger tactics and made things a lot more difficult for the PCs.
Frankly, I generally don't allow material that I don't have. *shrug* The players don't have to like it. As I have stated in a previous thread, make the players do all the homework on strengths/weaknesses/killer combos on material they want to use. Make them sell you on why it will be good for the game.
But that is neither here nor there. You have established that you are using material that appears to be problematic for you to balance against. You have established that you are running a game with a lot of magical equipment. Your players seem to min/max a lot. These are the parameters of your game.
Why did the dragon fall so quickly? Well frankly the dragon didn't use very strong tactics.
He is a guardian right? He is possessed. Presumably the demon and the Dread Emperor know the weaknesses of the form. Anybody coming through that tunnel should be expecting a white dragon. So they will be buffed to handle cold damage. Energy substitution on the breath weapon (Dragonomicon) would convert that to something like, acid. No biggie though. Breath weapons are either devastating or not. In this case, the party has a lot of evasion. So a breath weapon isn't a strong attack. The dragon couldn't know that though. So using breath weapon is a good opener tactic from a non min/max perspective.
But using breath weapon and staying in the same place is not a good tactic. Why? Because a dragon's strength is really in mobility. But the demon doesn't care and is somewhat arrogant. Bad decision through arrogance and apathy is no big deal.
The dragon dim doored to the other side of the gate? OK. No melee for either side then. Of course, aside from mobility, dragons are also good at melee. This assures that the dragon will rely on spells. Might make sense for a demon I suppose. But the dragon has already moved so he isn't flat-footed. The Arcane trickster tried to walk through the gate and cast spells? If I were the dragon, I would have used an AOO on the moving Arcane Trickster. Maybe a grapple? Or a bite, but probably a grapple. After all, it is what a demon would think of. Just because the AT has init doesn't mean the dragon is flat footed. He should have done something about the AT. Especially if he was smaller than normal. "Bite sized"
I am assuming that the PCs all made their frightful presence saves? It's only a DC 25, so it si likely that PCs of this level would make it.
As Kenobi65 mentions above, why was the dragon stunned and staggered? Which rules have you added that bring this about?
Why didn't the dragon move back before casting the quickened wall of ice/Fireball? No reason why he should have been caught by his spell. As well, why would that ruin other spells? Or am I mis-reading that entirely?
Without knowing all the capabilities of the dragon and the layout of the lair, I can't offer ways that the dragon would have lasted longer. To me it sounds like you tried to play the dragon/demon in character and were taken a little by surprise at how effectively the party retaliated. Not necessarily a bad thing, especially if this wasn't supposed to be a capstone combat. But the dragon's tactics did not fully utilize the advantages of a dragon's abilities. A start with a freezing fog would have been much more effective for an opener. It would cause the PCs to start making balance checks and would have made ranged combat problematic. You didn't use bad tactics, especially for the character of the NPC. But you could have opened with stronger tactics and made things a lot more difficult for the PCs.
Corsair said:
Good point. A very old white dragon, as Sir T indicated, is going to have:
- Bite +35 / 2d8+11
- 2 claws +30 (+33 if he has Multiattack, which he really should have) / 2d6+5 each
- 2 wings +30 (+33 with Multiattack) / 1d8+5 each
- Tail slap +30 (+33 with Multiattack) / 2d6+16
Plus a possible Crush attack for 2d8+16 (DC29 Reflex save to get out of the way)
Even with some absurd ACs on the part of the party, a lot of those are gonna hit.
Originally Posted by spunkrat
Can a Dragon cast spells while silenced?
Actually, a dragon casts spells just like any other sorcerer, verbal components and all. Barring the Silent spell feat or similar ability, Silence stops them just like any other spellcaster.
Spell-like abilities don't use verbal components, and most dragons have at least a few of those, but that's different from their sorcerer spells.
Can a Dragon cast spells while silenced?
Sir ThornCrest said:
Actually, a dragon casts spells just like any other sorcerer, verbal components and all. Barring the Silent spell feat or similar ability, Silence stops them just like any other spellcaster.
Spell-like abilities don't use verbal components, and most dragons have at least a few of those, but that's different from their sorcerer spells.
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