Do you play Dragons in lair, right??

[BSF]

we have a blast, every week. Im the Dm at least half the time..a few beers, dinner D&D has been a great time for many years now....so that means were doing something right aaahh!!
***also as a side note we as a group before every campaign will vote in different house rules sometimes good sometimes bad, but thats how ya find a balance....I hope nobody here is under the impression that Im not having a good time***

Thorncrest

To be honest, it does sound like you have not been having a good time. Admittedly, it is difficult to read tone on a messageboard, but your posts have sounded exasperated and frustrated. I'm glad to hear that is not the case.

 

[Mark]

Also, an Ancient Dragon that had to guard a gate (highly unlikely, I would think) would first make sure no one knew about the gate. Then make sure that if anyone found out about the gate, they wouldn't know where it is. Then make sure if they tried to find out where it is, they'd get false information so that it would seem to be there, but another gate would be there instead. Then make sure that whereever the real gate is, there'd be yet another gate right in front and another right behind it so as to make it impossible to easily use. Likely a gate that a dragon was meant to guard would be the most difficult way to get to whereever the gate was supposed to lead.

POSSESSED BY DEMON DRAGON...

OK. Let's say that could happen.

Also, an Ancient Dragon that had to guard a gate (highly unlikely, I would think) would first make sure no one knew about the gate. Then make sure that if anyone found out about the gate, they wouldn't know where it is. Then make sure if they tried to find out where it is, they'd get false information so that it would seem to be there, but another gate would be there instead. Then make sure that whereever the real gate is, there'd be yet another gate right in front and another right behind it so as to make it impossible to easily use. Likely a gate that a dragon was meant to guard would be the most difficult way to get to whereever the gate was supposed to lead.

Does this "posession" relieve the dragon of the rest of its falculties? Is it no longer able to use its intelligence to do what it is charged to do?

well maybe but this is like the 20th attack in one day...I dont have DR.

Your use of the CAPS LOCK to answer people who are trying to help you, at your own request, leads me to believe that you are not really interested in getting help. You seem more intent on getting people to pat you on the back and tell you that you did nothing wrong and that it all was the fault of the dice of some unusual series of harmonic convergences. I don't think anyone is going to do that. Here's a tip; When you ask for help, do it without a chip on your shoulder and be gracious when it is given. Don't read every suggestion as if it is an indictent of your DMing style or ability, even if some have done so. You're going to wind up with a lot of people who have tried, and many who have only read the attempts of others, who simply won't ever help you again if you keep it up.

 

[der_kluge]

I love Dragon's lair!

Oh wait...

 

[Kalendraf]

Sir ThornCrest,

I can identify with your plight. I've seen some of these kinds of problems before in 3e/3.5 and they are frustrating. I've been DM'ing weekly 3e/3.5 campaign for over 3 years now (and versions of D&D for over 20 years). While I thought I had a pretty good handle on the 3e rules after just a few gaming sessions, almost every session something seems to come up that makes me feel like a complete and utter novice. Looking back, I've made a lot of stupid blunders, including allowing in far too many non-core rules into the first campaign which ended up causing lots of balance problems. Now with 3+ years of 3e/3.5 DM'ing under my belt, I finally feel like I'm a fairly competent DM w/ these rules.

It appears that you may be trying to take on far too much too quickly. From your posts, it sounds like you have recently jumped into a 3e/3.5 game and for some reason decided to start at a very high level, bypassing valuable learning that would occur by starting a campaign in a more typical fashion at a lower level. In addition, it seems you've allowed a lot of non-core books or rules which only further complicate matters.

You may see yourself and your group as having a lot of fun, but if you want to run a better game which will likely be even more fun for everyone, I suggest restarting at low levels and taking things in smaller steps. Also, I highly recommend limiting it to just the core rules until you and your players are fully versed in those rules.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

I always like tactics from the enemy, to often do DM’s just serve you a superior enemy but with such lame stratagem he is seemingly suicidal. Keep the players on there toes. When I introduce a villian I really get into character and try to see things thru his eyes.

I always hated as a player when DM's just served you the mage "he runs up to you and casts....*dramatic drum roll* ....magic missiles...DR Evil pinky to mouth......I always play my mages with a bane to close physical contact....So with that M.O in mind I will usually play my dragons very challenging. However in this case the Dragon was under control and the puppet master cared not of his Dragon host.....he hadn’t seen combat for months if not years so he was eager for a fight...attacking w/ reckless abandon....

And just to let you guys know the big iron gate had a secondary trap to it....when pushed by the dragon it would unhinge and fall smashing all below......this of course triggered a ref save and all but the fighter made it.....he took 34 points of damage...

so you see there was a lot of combat, the dragon did about his own hit point in damage 300 +/-. I just didn’t want to write a book on this...next time I comment on an encounter its going to be 1 sentence or two.


My main point of story is the di rolling ..A TRIPLE CRIT!!! The mage dumping almost all 6’s and 5’s for his Fire Ball damage
The fighter cause a good 35 points per hit (when he hit) etc etc

Thorncrest

Sir Thorncrest I'de like to honestly help you with your next dragon encounter to try and help your dragon survive better and be more of a challenge.

Let's go over the next one you plan on having, what type of dragon? What age category?

Rystil incidentally that's not a CR 14 encounter. That's a lot of houserules meshing into something entirely different. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you, it's just impossible to peg exactly what CR that is.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

oh no I wasnt yelling my words just had cap lock on from work, oops!

Yes I agree in normal Dragon behavior is not suicide. They like the hunt, torture dominate all dragons are slightly different...but the snatch and drop is one of my favorites! This Dragobn however was being controlled and could not leave the cave. labrynth so he would know where pc's were and could demension door around blast em! pin em snatch one and run away with ..these were all things he was planning on...but the dragon just plain got worked with damage in just a few short rounds...not that the demon really cared!

Thorncrest

Hoo boy!

Thorncrest, here are some standard tactics that become uber- in the claws of a dragon.

• Trip
• Disarm
• Grapple
• Snatch 'em, fly way up the air (doing damage all the way), and drop 'em. Repeat.

And I have to ask...do you even want any advice? Replying with one line of caps comes across like a "YEAH, BUT--!" to everyone taking the time to help you out.

If you don't really care about how to run a dragon so it will clean your party's clock, what's the point of this thread??

Okay, it was a demon. The dragon-body was expendable. The dragon got 86ed. SO WHAT?? The demon will, no doubt, be back for revenge, right? What's the problem?

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

I just noticed the end of your post, what poblem? I dont thin there is one? The demon is next week going to come after players...after all he is the gate keeper...when the pc's go to leave he will attack......Im hoping on possessing the fighter so he will "help the party navigate the cliffs when they exit the cave.....Oh yah Im twisted enough to launch the cleric!!!

Hoo boy!

Thorncrest, here are some standard tactics that become uber- in the claws of a dragon.

• Trip
• Disarm
• Grapple
• Snatch 'em, fly way up the air (doing damage all the way), and drop 'em. Repeat.

And I have to ask...do you even want any advice? Replying with one line of caps comes across like a "YEAH, BUT--!" to everyone taking the time to help you out.

If you don't really care about how to run a dragon so it will clean your party's clock, what's the point of this thread??

Okay, it was a demon. The dragon-body was expendable. The dragon got 86ed. SO WHAT?? The demon will, no doubt, be back for revenge, right? What's the problem?

 

[Tom Cashel]

When you said

PIONT BEING I THOUGHT THE DRAGON WAS USING GOOD TACTICS, I MEAN I HAD A PLAN, HE WAS TOUGH A COUPLE OF GOOD ROLLES HE’S DEAD....WHEN THEY DROPPED HIM THEY SAID THEY HEARD THE THUMP OF MY JAW HITTING THE TABLE.

in your opening post, you made it seem like you had a problem with the outcome.

If you didn't, well, that's far out man.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

Thank you always aim to please!
This is my first site to post on so I am a novice. I still don’t know some of the protocol and terms that you more forum “savvy” experienced gamers know so I’m glad you had a good laugh at my expense.

Now to answer your question, read my first post! The dragon is under control by a demon who is under control of The Dread Emperor (DE) from the book of Vile Darkness...a very bad man and psychopath. The DE is using them to guard the gate to his ethereal palace....this gate is located in a remote cave in unknown mountains...this cave info I got by reading the description of the DE.

new campaign info...His delving into the black arts has started a campaign/plot line prophecy of creating 6 Vampire Lords....he will simply know of them but not have direct control over them, other that muscle. These 6 Vampire Lords I am going to model after our evil campaign characters.....should make it very fun for party...to kill the vamp lord form of their pc's from another campaign.

This is a undead hunter campaign and the party has been investigating the location of certain artifact magicals the Dread Emperor has been on the hunt for. I initially was going to make the DE a vamp lord as well but he would be way too strong of a villain at that point, he’s bad enough already!

There more cannon fodder for insults...
Thorncrest



Thorncrest

And a demon woudn't try to make no one no about the gate for what reason, exactly?

I must admit, I love your posts. Because they're hilariously bad. cracks me up everytime.

Thanks, you've made the boring days funnier. On days when I don't have new webcomics, you're a good dose of funny.

 

[BlackMoria]

He then blasted party with his breathe weapon - Monk saved no damage, Arcane trickster saved no damage, Cleric made it but didn’t take half immune to cold (saint) meathead fighter ring of evasion made it no damage, 14th level ranger made it no damage & jumped on otherside of fallen gate...NOT 1 HIT PIONT FROM A DRAGONS BREATHE!!!!!!

Let's look at this first.

An very old white dragon has a breath weapon save of Reflex DC 29. And a Frightful Presence aura of 270 ft radius with a Will DC 25. You forgot the Frightful Presence (mistake 1)

Dragon appears - party must make saves verse frightful presence. 14th level party - good saves are base +9 and poor saves are base +4. Assume a +4 for heighten stats and other misc, meaning good saves are +13 and poor saves are +8.

Cleric, Arcane Trickster, Monk need a 12 or higher to save, Ranger and Fighter need a 17 or higher to save.

Let's be generous and say the cleric, trickster and monk all save but the ranger and fighter don't save. Fighter and Ranger are now -2 to hit, saves, and skill checks due to being shaken.

Dragon breathes. Reflex save is DC 29. Reflex is poor for Cleric, Fighter, so +8 to saves for them, +13 to saves for others since they have reflex good save category.

Which means the Fighter (-2 to save for shaken) and Cleric must roll natural 20 to save, the Ranger must roll 18 or higher (-2 to save for shaken) and the others must roll 16 or higher to save.

Now....I don't know what magic items your party had, but I find it highly improbable that everyone saved verses the breath weapon and noone took any damage.

...dragon had ring of fire resistance 10 but the dragon was susceptible to the rest of the fire damage....he didn’t like that! And was effectively stunned by the damage.

Not by RAW. Your house rule seriously slewed the outcome of this encounter (mistake 2). If the house rule applies equally, then as I showed above, about half of your party should have been stunned by the dragon's breath, since it is highly improbable that everyone saved.

The ranger camelflouged successfully from dragons site let loose with his 4 arrows he has 4 arrows of brilliant energy basically allowing ranged touch attacks, he did all 4. 1st arrow hit, 2nd arrow a triple critical, I called it hit him in the eye, 3rd and 4th arrows all hits.

By the RAW, that is not how brilliant energy weapons work (mistake 3). The dragon still has his natural armor bonuses.

There might be other factors that may be questionable.

Given the above, and your house rules and intepretation of the RAW, the outcome comes as no surprise to me. And therefore, should be no surprise to you.

If you played by the RAW, the dragon should have laid a drubbing on the party. They may have still won but it would have hard fight..... not the pathetic outcome that result.

If you posted to get a sense of what went wrong, the above shows the major problems.

If you are posting to crow about how your party took down a white dragon without any damage to themselves, then you should be aware that most people on these boards are not impressed by such bravado, particularly when it is not warranted. The dragon, by the way you played the rules, really didn't stand much of chance....