Do you prefer your character to be connected or unconnected to the adventure hook?

[Cadence]

Sure, it's going to take longer to get a level of mastery to which many long time D&D players will be accustomed. But it shouldn't take long at all for people to get the gist and have a sense of whether a game is worthwhile or not. It took my group one session to have a good grasp of the Alien RPG. Did we mess up a couple of things? Sure. Were there any rules that we skipped initially? One or two. But we got the core mechanics, and we got the mounting sense of dread as our PCs accumulated Stress and needed to make Panic rolls.

Also, most games are not as complex as D&D. I know we think of it as easy....especially 5E....but there's quite a bit to it. Many other games are much simpler and don't require the amount of time to learn.

In 13th Age, montages are a pretty straightforward idea. But most of our group thought they were pretty awkward feeling the first time we did them. I'm not sure someone who is uncomfortable with them the first time can make an honest judgement of how they feel about it until they've had time to get into the groove with it. I assume some other games have similar things where there is a shift in narration and control.

13th Sage: More Uses for Montages

Montages—first introduced in our organized play adventures and later expanded on in the 13th Age Game Master's Resource Book—can quickly advance a story whi

site.pelgranepress.com

 

[hawkeyefan]

In 13th Age, montages are a pretty straightforward idea. But most of our group thought they were pretty awkward feeling the first time we did them. I'm not sure someone who is uncomfortable with them the first time can make an honest judgement of how they feel about it until they've had time to get into the groove with it. I assume some other games have similar things where there is a shift in narration and control.

13th Sage: More Uses for Montages

Montages—first introduced in our organized play adventures and later expanded on in the 13th Age Game Master's Resource Book—can quickly advance a story whi

site.pelgranepress.com

Absolutely. Some game elements are harder to grasp than others. And harder to incorporate into other games if you were so inclined. Something that involves a shift in narrative authority is gonna take some getting used to, for sure.

The Flashback mechanic from Blades in the Dark was like that for my group. Years of D&D and similar games have conditioned them to try and plan ahead in every conceivable way that they idea of just jumping to the start of a job and then using Flashbacks to show how they prepared for the job required a shift in thinking.

But I think this kind of stuff is a good example of why playing other games is a good thing. Even just reading about Montages or Flashbacks and shifts in narrative authority or chronology is going to hint at other possibilities. I've never played 13th Age, but that Montage bit sounds pretty cool, and I'm already thinking of ways I could put it to use in other games.

To loop this back to the original topic, there are plenty of things that many games do during character creation that automatically hook the PCs into the game world in meaningful ways. Some of these are simply having the player answer some questions or select from some options.....that kind of thing can easily be ported over to other games, if desired, or simply serve as an alternative example of a way to play.

 

[pemerton]

most games are not as complex as D&D. I know we think of it as easy....especially 5E....but there's quite a bit to it. Many other games are much simpler and don't require the amount of time to learn.

Absolutely this.

D&D has a lot of moving parts in resolution, especially combat resolution, and many interactions between mechanically-defined elements.

To loop this back to the original topic, there are plenty of things that many games do during character creation that automatically hook the PCs into the game world in meaningful ways. Some of these are simply having the player answer some questions or select from some options.....that kind of thing can easily be ported over to other games, if desired, or simply serve as an alternative example of a way to play.

When I started my first 4e campaign, I told the players that that each PC needed (i) a loyalty or connection of some kind, and (ii) a reason to be ready to fight goblins.

Simple questions, with simple answers, but even this much anchoring of the PCs into the gameworld - which includes player authorship of some aspects of the gameworld as part of coming up with those elements of backstory - makes a big difference in my view.

 

[Aldarc]

Also, most games are not as complex as D&D. I know we think of it as easy....especially 5E....but there's quite a bit to it. Many other games are much simpler and don't require the amount of time to learn.

A complete novice to TTRPGs asked if I could run them through a solo game of 5e D&D so they could try it. I did, and they found the complexity somewhat frustrating. Later we switched to Dungeon World and that was like night and day for them in terms of how easy it was for them to play.

I have had similar experiences going from a group running PF1 and then running Numenera and another group running 5e and switching to a Fate game.

 

[Fenris-77]

Because D&D isn't particularly focused from a rules standpoint, other than the layers added to combat, I find it reasonably easy to hack. There's significant design space to play with as long as you grasp the impact of moving various knobs and dials. However, that does not mean that D&D is particularly easy to hack in general. There are a lot of knobs and dials, and you do need to have some handle on RPG design.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In 13th Age, montages are a pretty straightforward idea. But most of our group thought they were pretty awkward feeling the first time we did them. I'm not sure someone who is uncomfortable with them the first time can make an honest judgement of how they feel about it until they've had time to get into the groove with it. I assume some other games have similar things where there is a shift in narration and control.

13th Sage: More Uses for Montages

Montages—first introduced in our organized play adventures and later expanded on in the 13th Age Game Master's Resource Book—can quickly advance a story whi

site.pelgranepress.com

I see how you had trouble with that. Not sure how the rulebook presents is, but that mechanic is a very large shift in play from how 13th Age normally does play, moving from a set of GM moderated resolution mechanics to a conch passing story mechanic is an abrupt shift that can be quite jarring, especially for a table that has little to no experience with such story tools.

Honestly, I'm not fond of that tool. It's a bit too close to letting players propose both the problem and the solution in play (avoided only by passing the conch between steps). It's too pure storytelling for me, I think. That said, if you use it to expand places that you were just going to skip over, I can see it do very well. I could be a great tool for expressing core character concepts, though, perhaps at the start of a session to get everyone on the same page on who the characters are.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Absolutely this.

D&D has a lot of moving parts in resolution, especially combat resolution, and many interactions between mechanically-defined elements.

Yeah, even the simplest version of D&D is still pretty complex. Many of us have been playing it for so long and it's so well ingrained in our minds that we think of it as easy. But I think back to my earliest days of playing D&D.....which was a mix of AD&D and the Mentzer boxed sets (which we didn't even realize were not meant to be compatible). By the time 2E was rolling out, we were a little better off, but we still used old AD&D material like Assassins and Cavaliers in the new rule set. In short, we were doing a lot of things wrong, per the rules.

Not that it mattered. We were having a blast.

EDITED TO ADD: I meant to point out that during this time, we were also playing a lot of TSR's Marvel Super Heroes RPG. By comparison, it was a much more straightforward game, and we understood almost all the rules pretty easily. It also had a nice chart on the back of the book that was a great reference during play. I had a couple of players who always pushed for Marvel simply because it was easier to play. They still were willing to play D&D, but certain elements never really made sense to them.

When I started my first 4e campaign, I told the players that that each PC needed (i) a loyalty or connection of some kind, and (ii) a reason to be ready to fight goblins.

Simple questions, with simple answers, but even this much anchoring of the PCs into the gameworld - which includes player authorship of some aspects of the gameworld as part of coming up with those elements of backstory - makes a big difference in my view.

Yeah, it's really not that tough to come up with some basics, and use those to inform play. It doesn't need to be formalized, even. Just about any game can include this step. D&D 5E kind of does it with the Traits, Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws, but I don't think that those tend to be all that meaningful. The few times I've played with people other than my regular group, several folks didn't even bother to fill those sections in, and the DM didn't even look at the ones who did take the time.

 

[hawkeyefan]

A complete novice to TTRPGs asked if I could run them through a solo game of 5e D&D so they could try it. I did, and they found the complexity somewhat frustrating. Later we switched to Dungeon World and that was like night and day for them in terms of how easy it was for them to play.

I have had similar experiences going from a group running PF1 and then running Numenera and another group running 5e and switching to a Fate game.

Yup. Sometimes my players actually take a game that's less complex, and they feel the need to make it more so because they're trying to make it more like what they're used to. It's not a conscious decision from what I can tell, just more a matter of conditioning.

They really feel the need to prepare a lot for what they think may be coming.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Why do you think that is? Is it a conscious decision, or just what you do by feeling? If it's conscious, why do you choose to do that?

I don't come into a campaign with an idea for a PC I want to tell a story about or anything like that. So I roll stats, see what cool PC I can make from that, and then he really just comes together in play after that. Plus in most of our campaigns low level PC drop like flies, best to not get too attached.

 

[Istbor]

Note that creating relatives only for them to be killed may be quite unkind to emotionally invested player. Even an adventure prologue (ie. an initial setup) could be nasty (especially if it hits vulnerable members of the family).

The recommendation would be to hold an auction of sorts, during which you put a few plot hooks on the table, including the nasty options, and just ask if someone would like to play an avenger.

Yeah, and then you have a party like mine, where three of the characters lost wives to various villains. Three. I prompted none of them to do this for their backstory. Out of 5 players, only one has any living relation.

Oddly, only the players with actual wives chose this for their character backstories... hmmm....


To add my two copper though. I like characters that have a strong reason to be following that main hook. Even if that reason is a hunger for riches or glory. Characters/players that are only invested because it is what there is to do, or because the rest of the party wants to do it is... not something that sounds fun.