Do you "save" the PCs?

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That's a biased phrasing. How about "DM knows more about what's going on in the game" and/or "DM bears more responsibility for the enjoyment of the game"?

They don't mean the same thing. I don't fudge, and I know more about what's going on in the game and bear more responsibility to boot. So, it can't be that. It may be that, coupled with something else, like, say, the feeling that your desired outcome will be "more fun".

There must be a subjective qualifier to fudge. Some way in which the person fudging believes that doing so makes the game better. And, because fudging is directing the outcome, it must be related to a belief that changing the outcome in a way you desire makes the game better.

AFAICT, the phrasing is not biased; it is accurate.

And, if one truly believes that the information disparity between DM and players means that the DM does know best, or that the DM’s desired outcome is best, then saying so should hardly seem biased.

You're still assuming we're fudging without player consent or knowledge. I have stated that's not the case.

No, I am not. I assume that the players do not want to know. That seems consistent with what you & Umbran reported.


RC
 
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Umbran, thank you for asking them. That's a good, pretty basic answer. Why would such an announcement throw a monkey-wrench in dramatic tension?

I don't intend to be exhaustive about it, but I can give a couple of reasons:

1) First and foremost, metagame discussion tends to break suspension of disbelief, and that ruins dramatic tension - it's like thinking about sausage making while eating a really good hot dog. :)

The middle of action is not the time to pause for discussion of what has happened in the machinery they don't normally see. They don't want me to talk about fudging any more than they want me to get into extended discussions about why I've made a ruling during play. The general policy they prefer is that such discussion happen later, that my word is law until later.

2) Dramatic tension arises from uncertainty, which is based itself in selective ignorance. Telling them about the nuts and bolts removes some of that ignorance, and thus the uncertainty. While usually dramatic tension resolves, and the uncertainty goes away, they'd prefer that not be done prematurely, out-of-game.


I am not at all surprised that, asked by the DM "Do you mind if I sometimes fudge" the answer comes back "I suppose you know what you're doing, but don't tell me about it."

I wonder what answer those same DMs would get to the questions: "Would you prefer that I didn't fudge?" and "Why?" or "Why not?"

Well, yes, you can ask the question in a leading manner in either direction. I was as careful as I could be to not lead either way.

You see, just as Pawsplay was earlier asking why folks found it so hard to believe that he had a successful game without fudging, I find quite the opposite - that I have to fight the battle to get some of you to believe that I have a successful game with fudging. So, I arranged to be pretty ironclad here, at least as far as my own group is concerned.
 

There is a very basic and big difference between seeing the game as a game, and seeing it as "telling a story" in which the GM's preferred outcome defines "the adventure".

That something is "rare and extreme" does not at all make it good.
 
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Let's look at a murder mystery I ran quite a few years ago.

The PCs were approached to uncover the murderer of a beautiful foreign noblewoman the PCs had previously met.

In reality, she was murdered by her evil younger sister for court intrigue / personal romance reasons. The younger sister had used a couple of simple illusions to cast blame towards a royal son known to be a womaniser.

There were clues readily available to find the real killer, not to mention the PCs were of a level that magical divination was a real possibility. I expected the PCs to pierce the fabrication and find the culprit.

Instead, the PCs bought the overt story, investigated only to verify their prejudices were correct, and discarded any evidence that contradicted their premise. They presented their finding to the court and the royal son was banished from the kingdom and became a new threat to the group. The evil ilusionist consolidated her power in court and became more dangerous as well.

Why is that story inferior to the original expected ending of piercing the fabrication and finding the bad guy? Why should a GM push a particular set of choices and/or specifically override a random result he decided to roll in the first place?

Actually, I have no problem with that outcome. So revise whatever I said to include the mental agility to allow for that. :)

I think part of the communication problem is in trying to rapidly codify how I do things, which is much more complex than making generic statements.

For instance, when I use "expected outtcome", it doesn't mean I force things to that (though it doesn't mean a GM couldn't). It simply means that when i present an opportunity to the player, there is a default expected path I think they will take, and a default expected outcome.

If the quest is "catch the killer", I write material that I think will support that, including the capture of the killer. I then go back (if I have time), and identify any "weak" spots where I think a deviation is more likely for the players (meaning I made a huge assumption about how they would approach something). I then put some more material or notes on "if they don't pursue X, show them something else"

I do it this way, because it is less work than trying to build some kind of mega-flowchart of the game choices and possibly outcomes. Since I'm not building some very location-based (where all I really need to do is describe who and what is at each room), this method works OK for me.

I can't say what PC does, but mentally I liken it to a similar concept. I like to have enough material so I know who the PCs may fight or interact with, and the places these things may happen, and a rough outline of the basic "defaullt" chain of events. After that I wing it. I suspect PC wings it more than I do. But we both seem to try to run light on written content (I use maybe 3-4 pages of material).

I have run campaigns where the dice (except for secret rolls) were done in the open. There are times where it is harder to lighten up on the PCs when I do so. In effect, it makes me feel more adversarial.

To return to what Nagol said, if I put in fake clues like that, then I already see 2 default outcomes. part of the point (to me), of playing with players, is when I create the situation like Nagol describes, I want to see what THEY make of it. And I'm much more interested in the social outcome of it, than any combat outcome.

If my players are actively pursuing the goal, I cut them some slack and try to make sure their choices ultimately pan out. if they picked Left (with no evidence that it was better than Right), I'll make Left eventually get to the castle or bad guy or whatever. it's really a matter of what choices they make really matter, and what choices don't.

For instance, where I went to lunch today has less bearing on my life and "what happens next" than the time I spent on this thread, instead of writing code. "choice" versus "Choice"
 

ExploderWizard said:
Metagaming is even uglier with such intel in the players hands.

In the cases you cite, I think it merely appropriate that players should get such clues.

It is in my experience almost unheard of for a D&D game (or almost any RPG) to conceal players' Hit Point scores from them. There seems to be a very intuitive grasp of the importance of observing that resource in assessing risks.

To hide attack, save and damage rolls likewise makes the game harder. To discover, for instance, an opponent's chance of hitting requires a big enough sample. To find out not just how often but how hard requires a big enough sample of actual hits. Remove hit point information on top of that, and the only hard data you get is:

How long did it take to get this character killed?

Repeat enough times to reach statistical significance.

Alternatively, players can memorize the Monster Manual. Is that "ugly", too?

"Metagaming" my Aunt Fanny! It's just gaming.

If you need some kind of "method acting" rationale, try this on for size: If I were a veteran fighting man actually informed by all five senses and by memories of both watching and fighting many fights -- then might I not have more information than a GM's verbal description is likely to provide?
 
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And, if one truly believes that the information disparity between DM and players means that the DM does know best, or that the DM’s desired outcome is best, then saying so should hardly seem biased.
Not in a literal sense, no. But you know as well as I do that the phrase "[someone] knows best" carries a heavy implication of paternalistic attitude.

No, I am not. I assume that the players do not want to know. That seems consistent with what you & Umbran reported.
You're conflating two things: players can know that their DM fudges at times without knowing or wanting to know on which specific occasions the fudging occurs.
 

The middle of action is not the time to pause for discussion of what has happened in the machinery they don't normally see.

There is no requirement for discussion. A single word is enough. "He rolled a 20. Fudge. 16. He misses."

Dramatic tension arises from uncertainty, which is based itself in selective ignorance. Telling them about the nuts and bolts removes some of that ignorance, and thus the uncertainty. While usually dramatic tension resolves, and the uncertainty goes away, they'd prefer that not be done prematurely, out-of-game.

Of course, if they are aware that you are fudging, that too removes some uncertainty, doesn't it? "Will the BBEG stike for another critical, killing the paladin?" "Why, no, we can safely expect any such roll to be fudged!"

Well, yes, you can ask the question in a leading manner in either direction. I was as careful as I could be to not lead either way.

"Do you mind that I do" is not the same as "Would you prefer that I did not". You could also ask "Do you prefer that I fudge" if you are worried about skewing the result.

I find quite the opposite - that I have to fight the battle to get some of you to believe that I have a successful game with fudging.

Who are you having difficulty convincing? Who said that your game was unsuccessful?

Is it possible to have a successful game using techniques that are not generally recommended? Obviously so. Not doing prep work is not generally recommended, yet Piratecat is well known as a great DM. Does that mean that we should advise not to prep? Or should we note the Great Kitty as an exception, and advise to prep?

And, even after noting that exception, do we conclude that Piratecat is running his best possible game by not prepping, or do we consider that, should Piratecat have the time and inclination to prep more, it is possible that he could improve his game?

As I said above, we all have strengths, and we all have weaknesses. In some cases, a person may have to do something not generally advised to cater to his strengths, or to bolster his weaknesses. If PC discovers that, the more prep he does, the worse his DMing is, then that may be because of the way his particular strengths and weaknesses interact.

It still doesn't make "Don't prep!" good general advice. And I am willing to bet that there are a lot more people out there who imagine or want to believe that their strengths and weaknesses interact in the direction of less prep work than there really are.

IMHO and IME, that's just human nature. If we have an excuse to take the path of least resistance, we generally do so. YMMV, of course.

So, I arranged to be pretty ironclad here, at least as far as my own group is concerned.

That I believe.

Not so sure how that goes with your being careful as you could be to not lead either way, though. :lol:

There is a very basic and big difference between seeing the game as a game, and seeing it as "telling a story" in which the GM's preferred outcome defines "the adventure".

Agreed.


RC
 

Of course, if they are aware that you are fudging, that too removes some uncertainty, doesn't it? "Will the BBEG stike for another critical, killing the paladin?" "Why, no, we can safely expect any such roll to be fudged!"
And there you go again with the misrepresentation and/or misunderstanding.

No one, as far as I can tell, is advocating that fudging should be used to prevent any and all PC death. Fudging as I use it is completely discretionary. There are no rules to its application. Basically I use it if it feels like the right thing to do in the particular situation.
 


And there you go again with the misrepresentation and/or misunderstanding.

No one, as far as I can tell, is advocating that fudging should be used to prevent any and all PC death. Fudging as I use it is completely discretionary. There are no rules to its application. Basically I use it if it feels like the right thing to do in the particular situation.

(1) This sounds a lot like "Mother May I?" except that the player doesn't get to ask.

(2) Are you trying to advocate that fudging can be used, but should not be? Because, IMHO, there is a logical problem with arguing that one should fudge to save a PC when it feels right, while simultaneously claiming not to advocate fudging to prevent any PC death. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean here? Because you do not have to fudge to prevent all PC deaths to train the players to expect their bacon to be pulled from the fire. Not by a long shot. Many players are very good at letting you know how disappointing and anti-climactic and unfun it will be if that three-headed ogre kills Sir Robin this round.

(3) Related to this, IME, players pretty well universally can figure out when their GM is going to decide it "feels right". IME, players push to gain that information, by doing silly things and trying to figure out how far they can go. And once armed with that information, it is not unknown for a player to push to make it "feel right" to the GM to fudge in their favour.

I have yet to meet the GM who fudges, whose players don't know that he fudges, and whose players cannot predict reasonably well when he will fudge. I have, OTOH, met many GMs who believed they were that GM. Heck, as I said above, under 2e I was a GM who thought he was that GM. IME, and IMHO, that GM is mythical.....and if not mythical, so rare as to be the next best thing.

YMMV.


RC
 
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