Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?
- Thread starter Mulkhoran
- Start date
Re
Hong,
You asked for literature where the wizard was the most powerful character in the story, not for literature alike or unlike wizards in D&D. I listed stories where the wizards were heads and tails above the warrior types in power. The stories I listed all had arcane caster type characters who were far more powerful than their warrior counterparts.
You know as well as I that just because you have the power, doesn't mean you always win, especially in stories.
Yes, wizards as the most powerful class is a good thing to me. It fits my concept of how powerful magic should be. I am not saying this is how it should be for everyone, just how I like it.
In any fantasy world I DM, Magic is the most potent force in the entire world equaled only by the divine power of the gods themselves, who also employ magic. Wizards, and sorcerers to a lesser degree, being the premier users of arcane magic stand heads and tails above the other classes in terms of sheer power and versatility.
This is not how all people like to play, but my players and I don't have much trouble with it. It isn't like other class types aren't potent, they just aren't as potent as the arcane casters except in specific circumstances where magic is ineffective.
Hong,
You asked for literature where the wizard was the most powerful character in the story, not for literature alike or unlike wizards in D&D. I listed stories where the wizards were heads and tails above the warrior types in power. The stories I listed all had arcane caster type characters who were far more powerful than their warrior counterparts.
You know as well as I that just because you have the power, doesn't mean you always win, especially in stories.
Yes, wizards as the most powerful class is a good thing to me. It fits my concept of how powerful magic should be. I am not saying this is how it should be for everyone, just how I like it.
In any fantasy world I DM, Magic is the most potent force in the entire world equaled only by the divine power of the gods themselves, who also employ magic. Wizards, and sorcerers to a lesser degree, being the premier users of arcane magic stand heads and tails above the other classes in terms of sheer power and versatility.
This is not how all people like to play, but my players and I don't have much trouble with it. It isn't like other class types aren't potent, they just aren't as potent as the arcane casters except in specific circumstances where magic is ineffective.
Last edited:
Re: Re
The thing that most of the stories _I've_ read have in common is that any spellcasters that do exist are facilitators. They don't advance the story themselves. Instead, they bring about the conditions so that the true protagonists -- who usually don't have any particular magical powers themselves -- can win through.
This is as true for Gandalf and Belgarath as it is for Merlin and Morgan le Fay. The stereotype of the fireball-hurling, planewalking mage is one that exists in D&D, and perhaps some of the more spectacular anime and manga, but it isn't one with deep roots in myth and legend.
So if you want to draw from literary sources, do it right. Your wizards should stick to the background, buffing up the tanks so they can do their job. Just because they can cast lots of magic doesn't mean they can cast just _any_ type of magic.
Exactly. This is a game, and balance is important for a game.
Like I said, in that case, the game you really want is 1E. You won't be fighting the system there.
Celtavian said:
The thing that most of the stories _I've_ read have in common is that any spellcasters that do exist are facilitators. They don't advance the story themselves. Instead, they bring about the conditions so that the true protagonists -- who usually don't have any particular magical powers themselves -- can win through.
This is as true for Gandalf and Belgarath as it is for Merlin and Morgan le Fay. The stereotype of the fireball-hurling, planewalking mage is one that exists in D&D, and perhaps some of the more spectacular anime and manga, but it isn't one with deep roots in myth and legend.
So if you want to draw from literary sources, do it right. Your wizards should stick to the background, buffing up the tanks so they can do their job. Just because they can cast lots of magic doesn't mean they can cast just _any_ type of magic.
Exactly. This is a game, and balance is important for a game.
Like I said, in that case, the game you really want is 1E. You won't be fighting the system there.
Re
Hong,
How am I fighting the system in 3rd edition? This I do not understand.
D&D wizards are far more powerful than any other class, especially so in the official D&D campaign setting known as the Forgotten Realms.
Am I wrong here? Quite a few people on this board here want to reduce the effectiveness of haste. They do not want to reduce it because it is too strong by itself, they want to reduce it because it is too strong in conjunction with other spells.
Arcane casters will still have access to higher level spells even if they don't have access to haste. All removing haste will do is make the combats last longer, it will not change their outcome.
That is one of the main reasons I see zero benefit in changing haste. Haste by itself is not overpowered, it is haste in conjunction with higher level spells that make it overpowered. This is inherently a problem with the magic system, which greatly favors casters, arcane casters the most.
I am in no way fighting the 3rd edition rules by stating that arcane casters are by far the most powerful class. 1st edition casters are hardly more powerful than 3rd edition casters. They didn't even have metamagic in 3rd edition and haste didn't even allow an extra spell to be cast. The extra spell casting is purely a 3rd edition addition.
Spellcasters have never been more powerful than in 3rd edition D&D. I have played since Basic D&D, and I have never seen casters so powerful as now. Heck, even clerics are far superior to any version of the cleric I have ever seen.
Wake up to the reality Hong, 3rd edition D&D is heavily slighted towards caster classes.
Hong,
How am I fighting the system in 3rd edition? This I do not understand.
D&D wizards are far more powerful than any other class, especially so in the official D&D campaign setting known as the Forgotten Realms.
Am I wrong here? Quite a few people on this board here want to reduce the effectiveness of haste. They do not want to reduce it because it is too strong by itself, they want to reduce it because it is too strong in conjunction with other spells.
Arcane casters will still have access to higher level spells even if they don't have access to haste. All removing haste will do is make the combats last longer, it will not change their outcome.
That is one of the main reasons I see zero benefit in changing haste. Haste by itself is not overpowered, it is haste in conjunction with higher level spells that make it overpowered. This is inherently a problem with the magic system, which greatly favors casters, arcane casters the most.
I am in no way fighting the 3rd edition rules by stating that arcane casters are by far the most powerful class. 1st edition casters are hardly more powerful than 3rd edition casters. They didn't even have metamagic in 3rd edition and haste didn't even allow an extra spell to be cast. The extra spell casting is purely a 3rd edition addition.
Spellcasters have never been more powerful than in 3rd edition D&D. I have played since Basic D&D, and I have never seen casters so powerful as now. Heck, even clerics are far superior to any version of the cleric I have ever seen.
Wake up to the reality Hong, 3rd edition D&D is heavily slighted towards caster classes.
Re: Re
You are fighting the system in that everyone else wants magic users toned down, but you don't. The philosophy that wizards rule is 1E through and through, and contrary to what most 3E players are after.
You can say the exact same thing about the fighter and rogue. A high-level fighter or barb can dish out enough damage to kill himself in two rounds, or a wizard in one round. And that 760,000 gp worth of gear that everyone gets at 20th level is there for a reason.
You say this like it's a positive thing.
Celtavian said:
You are fighting the system in that everyone else wants magic users toned down, but you don't. The philosophy that wizards rule is 1E through and through, and contrary to what most 3E players are after.
You can say the exact same thing about the fighter and rogue. A high-level fighter or barb can dish out enough damage to kill himself in two rounds, or a wizard in one round. And that 760,000 gp worth of gear that everyone gets at 20th level is there for a reason.
You say this like it's a positive thing.
Last edited:
Re: Re
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't do it! You don't understand! That's how this horrific, train-wreck travesty got started! See the first post! "Let's have a poll", you think. "It'll be fun" you think. It's madness, I tell you, madness! Don't give in!
But hong's wrong. No matter how cool that "solar radiation in [deleted]'s world, in addition to changing the color of the sky..." was.
*tosses fuel on fire*
Celtavian said:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't do it! You don't understand! That's how this horrific, train-wreck travesty got started! See the first post! "Let's have a poll", you think. "It'll be fun" you think. It's madness, I tell you, madness! Don't give in!
But hong's wrong. No matter how cool that "solar radiation in [deleted]'s world, in addition to changing the color of the sky..." was.
*tosses fuel on fire*
Storm Raven
First Post
Re: Re: Re
The "druids" in the Shanarra books are the most powerful individuals in those works.
Dallben in The Chronicles of Prydain is the most individually powerful figure other than Arawn in those books. He casts spells like Wall of Fire more than once.
The wizard like Highlords in the first of the Unbeliever series are the most powerful indiviuduals in those books other than Lord Foul and possibly Thomas Covenant.
hong said:
The "druids" in the Shanarra books are the most powerful individuals in those works.
Dallben in The Chronicles of Prydain is the most individually powerful figure other than Arawn in those books. He casts spells like Wall of Fire more than once.
The wizard like Highlords in the first of the Unbeliever series are the most powerful indiviuduals in those books other than Lord Foul and possibly Thomas Covenant.
