Do you think this would unbalance the game?

[Gez]

Well enough to be understood.

It reminds me of Morrowind. There were three blocks of skills (corresponding roughly to combat, stealth, and magic), and IIRC 8 skills in each.

What about doubling the number of skill points for everyone (thus 4, 8, 12, 16) ?

About max ranks and first-level skill point multiplication, I would keep them tied together. If doubled, then level +1.

Mmmh... What about giving 4 skill points for everyone at first level (in addition to the other), that can be put in any Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skill; but then no multiplication, and max skill rank = level ?

It would simulate background training, give an equal start to everyone (before adding class skills), and would make maxing skills real easy.

 

[KarinsDad]

That looks like an interesting change. (Though I can already hear the whines about how everyone only increases by 2 and the rogue by 4.)

I can hear whines about Barbarians, Monks, and Druids not getting any increase at all while all other classes get +2 (or +4) more.

Unless of course he meant to say that characters with 4 now get 8. But if he meant that, then (in 3.5) it means that Bards and Rangers have no skill advantage over Barbarians, Monks, and Druids.


The concept of doubling the points like Gez suggested would resolve not only the block issue, but would resolve a problem I have with the game as is anyway: not enough skill points to acquire even basic skills like Climb, Ride, Swim for most characters and still max out class skills.

 

[Chacal]

It reminds me of Morrowind. There were three blocks of skills (corresponding roughly to combat, stealth, and magic), and IIRC 8 skills in each.

Interesting...

What about doubling the number of skill points for everyone (thus 4, 8, 12, 16) ?

seems more fair, but might mean too much maxed skills

About max ranks and first-level skill point multiplication, I would keep them tied together. If doubled, then level +1.

I can see problems with PrC requirements being harder to meet.

Mmmh... What about giving 4 skill points for everyone at first level (in addition to the other), that can be put in any Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skill; but then no multiplication, and max skill rank = level ?

It would simulate background training, give an equal start to everyone (before adding class skills), and would make maxing skills real easy.

Good Idea ! But I'm biased since I already have background skills,
(knowledge except arcana, profession, wilderness lore, languages, crafts) with 4 free points to distribute+ 1/level.


IME, the main problem with skill points are:
- too few of them
- tendance to maximize a few skills, and having just the bare minimum at others (which can't be used untrained)

This is why I advocate giving more skill points, but essentially for "flavor" skills, and separating these bonus points (how about 4 for everyone ? or should it be tied to the normal skill points ? )from the standard points.

Having a lesser maximum rank is an intersting limitation. I like the level +1. If someone wants to raise one of his "flavor" skills above this, he must use its "normal" points.

I'll try this as soon as I find a new group.


Chacal

 

[Chacal]

I can hear whines about Barbarians, Monks, and Druids not getting any increase at all while all other classes get +2 (or +4) more.

Me too ! They must be whining very loud

The concept of doubling the points like Gez suggested would resolve not only the block issue, but would resolve a problem I have with the game as is anyway: not enough skill points to acquire even basic skills like Climb, Ride, Swim for most characters and still max out class skills.

I agree, with the restriction already stated above


Chacal

 

[Golem2176]

I'm giving some thought to tweaking some of the skill points gained by several of the classes. I was thinking of raising those who get 2 to 4, those who get 6 to 8, and those who get 8 (rogues) to 12.

(Yes, they're all multiples of four. Yes, there's a reason. It involves some tweaks I'm thinking of making to other aspects of the system, but they won't have any bearing on this particular question.)

Now, because this means most classes are getting more skills, I'm thinking of dropping the x4 you get at 1st level down to x2--or possibly even to no multiplier at all.

If you take the classes that start with 4 skill points and multiply it by 4 you get 16. Adding four more skill points with no modifier puts them at a total of 8 skill points for first level. This leaves them worse off than before. Just curious, how would your other changes balance this?

 

[Storminator]

Well, it's a bit hard to explain, because I'm still in the process of working it out myself. But it has to do with the fact that I'm playing around with the total number of skills and the number of class skills everyone gets. In essence, I'm dividing the skills up into "blocks" of four and I'd like each class to get one, two, or three "blocks"-worth of points. If this works out, it'll be a real easy way to create generic NPCs, by simply assuming each block of skills is maxed out. (PCs and imporant NPCs, of course, still have the option of divind their points however they like.)

I don't think I'm explaining it very well, especially since, as I said, the idea itself is still in the larval stage.

If you look at my critique, you'll see that you can end up with a different number of maxed skills at each level. That's an issue if you're trying to make things easier.

PS

 

[Nifft]

Something I've been considering:

- Everyone gets 2x skill points at every level (including 1st, as opposed to 4x at 1st).

- Max rank is still Level +3.

- However, higher ranks cost more skill points than lower ranks. Specifically, every 4 ranks the cost goes up by one. Thus, for class skills:
* 1-4 ranks: 1 SP/rank
* 5-8 ranks: 2 SP/rank
* 9-12 ranks: 3 SP/rank
* 13-16 ranks: 4 SP/rank
* 17-20 ranks: 5 SP/rank

Cross-class skills would require an additional SP/rank.


The desired effects are:
- Specialization is expensive, as in every other field of d20.

- Skill Focus feats remain valuable as you become higher level, since the skill point "compensation" for the Feat goes up with your maximum rank in the skill.

- It's easy to build a well-rounded character with a few skill points, and it's tough to build a good-at-everything character even with a lot of skill points.

- High-level DCs won't be a breeze to some characters and an insurmountable obstacle to others -- overall, DCs can be reduced, due to the "diminishing returns" effect.


Unfortunately, I haven't the expertise to run numbers against the playtested mechanic.

-- N

 

[KarinsDad]

- Everyone gets 2x skill points at every level (including 1st, as opposed to 4x at 1st).

- Max rank is still Level +3.

I've been considering this as well.

- However, higher ranks cost more skill points than lower ranks. Specifically, every 4 ranks the cost goes up by one. Thus, for class skills:
* 1-4 ranks: 1 SP/rank
* 5-8 ranks: 2 SP/rank
* 9-12 ranks: 3 SP/rank
* 13-16 ranks: 4 SP/rank
* 17-20 ranks: 5 SP/rank

Cross-class skills would require an additional SP/rank.

This is too complex, especially for crafting NPCs.

Just your first portion about doubling at all levels including first makes the most sense. The character has fewer skills at levels one and two, the same number at level three, and more overall after that.

10th level Barbarian has 80 skill points. Divide by level +3 to figure out max skills. 80/13 = 6 skills max out.

 

[jerichothebard]

Well, it's a bit hard to explain, because I'm still in the process of working it out myself. But it has to do with the fact that I'm playing around with the total number of skills and the number of class skills everyone gets. In essence, I'm dividing the skills up into "blocks" of four and I'd like each class to get one, two, or three "blocks"-worth of points. If this works out, it'll be a real easy way to create generic NPCs, by simply assuming each block of skills is maxed out. (PCs and imporant NPCs, of course, still have the option of divind their points however they like.)

I don't think I'm explaining it very well, especially since, as I said, the idea itself is still in the larval stage.

That's a pretty major change to make to the system for what amounts to a pretty small bonus for the DM.

If NPCs are proving to be that much of a problem to generate, buy one or two of the MANY books of NPCs floating around...

and it royally screws over the guys who play 4/level classes.


side note:
I personally don't think that there are too few skill points per character, with the exception of the 2/level group. Remember - the DC of an average task - say, riding a horse down the street, or cooking a basic meal - are around 10. Take a little time, you got it made.

Only when you get into specialties and extraordinary tasks are you talking about higher DCs, which then require higher skill bonuses. So, people with two or three skills maxed out are specialists - decent enough at everyday tasks, pretty good at a few.

which is pretty realistic.

As for the argument that you always see characters with the same skills maxed out, well, duh.

Bakers don't go adventuring. Adventurers do.

They're like the NFL - how many of those guys have much in the way of skills beyond football? not many. or the NBA - even the most gifted basketball player of all time so far - Jordan - was a pretty sucky baseball player, and is only passing at golf.


jtb

 

[jerichothebard]

edit: double post. Sorry.