Do you use "evil" races?

[Desdichado]

Off hand or direct, what is the differance. You should know that there is no absolut consistency in Tolkien's mythology. I feel completly justifed in my assertion that Orks are decendants of elves as you should in your assertion that they are not. Tolkien may have changed his mind on the orign of orcs, form elves to men, but that does not resolve all the inconsistencies that go along with the change. This is not the only area Tolkien changed his mind or developed conflicting myths. We are dealing with a back story which Tolkien developed and changed over a long period of time and did not publish or correlate himself. I think the transitive nature of Tolkien's mythology is as good an argument for changing archetypes as any other.

Well, my entire answer to this post was contained in my original post, so I'm not entirely sure how to respond. As far as I'm concerned, The Silmarillion is the least reputable of "direct" sources in terms of Tolkien lore. Christopher himself regretted his editing job, and that was one of the reasons he released the History of Middle-earth series of books. I'm sure the money didn't hurt either.

 

[Camarath]

Re: Re: Re: Do you use "evil" races?

That misunderstanding only came about from an offhand comment in the Silmarillion, a book which is a mismatched pastiche created not by JRR Tolkien but by his son Christopher before he had really read many of his father's notes and understood where he was going with the M-e mythology.B]

The quote is not offhand but direct and explicit and leaves little room for misinterpriation. I was also pointing out that it is not an error but an internal shift that Tolkien made late in his development of Middle Earth that was never fully implemented and integrated. It is good that you can dismiss the irreconcilable incongruities inherent in work that the author never indented for publication, other wise it might be hard for you to speak with authority and certainty. My point of contention is that you have made an assertion of fact about a subject that has no absoult resolution, because of three points; one the work contradicts its self even if you exclude the Silmarillion, two the world was never brought to a state of completion, three the author is dead and died before these works were published, edited, or authorized.

 

[Desdichado]

No, but as Christopher Tolkien himself later regretted the publishing of the Silmarillion in it's current form as unrepresentative of his father's views on the mythology at any given time, borrowing as it did material from the very latest writings, the very earliest writings and even some material written by Christopher himself, it's hardly to be thrust forward in equal authority with other material he wrote.

And, lest I remind you, you are saying I can't possibly be speaking with authority on the issue since we don't know for sure what, if anything, Tolkien would have published on the issue had he lived a little longer. Yet, you are the one who stated very matter-of-factly that elves were the ancestors of orcs earlier in this thread, which you yourself now admit cannot be firmly established.

 

[Camarath]

There are loose ends in history of Middle Earth that still allow elven origin to not be completely implausible, mainly the discontinuity between the first instantance of orcs on Middle Earth and when men first appeared. I admit that Tolkien intended to reorganize the entire Mythos to incorporate the changed origin of orcs. But I think it is fare to say that even if elves were not twisted in to orcs then some of them were at least corrupted by Melkor(or at least that they can be currupted). My statement of the origins of orcs was not meant as a absolut declaration of truth but as a refutation of the asertion that the nature of elves and orcs in Tolkiens work was a clear cut division between those who can not be evil and those who can not be good. That point means more to me than the orcs' pedigree, since it deals with the meaning of Tolkien's work, which I think is more complex that a simple dualistic struggle. I think, orcs being descended form men serves almost as well for that point.

I am sorry if I was confrontational or presumed speak with undue authority. I was trying to simply express my point in a expendant fashion. And, since I have never felt this matter resolved (to my satisfaction at least), I used the story of the elven origin of orcs as a tool for pointing out that the matter was not as one dimensional as it had been presented.