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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 5977398" data-attributes="member: 40961"><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>No. "Giving it a try" with an RPG typically involves investing a significant amount of time and energy. I don't have that much of it for gaming. So I will not be trying out a game that I have good reason to think that I will not like. I will, at least, borrow the books and read them, if anyone I know buys them. I'd like to at least learn what I can from seeing how a group of professionals addressed the issues of RPG design.</p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p>For a given definition of "audience," yes. I just think they're wrong. Both the designers, and the audience.</p><p></p><p>I guess my biggest fear about 5e is that it will be forgettable. 3e genuinely advanced the technology of RPG design. So did 4e. Even if you hate the implementation, the ideas that were utilized were cutting edge. I don't mean stuff like "Everyone uses the same power structure," I mean stuff like "We genuinely spent significant time building equal spotlight time into the very structure of the game." These are game design ideas that are objectively good, and that hadn't featured very prominently in RPGs... in the gaming world, RPGs tend to be fairly unique in being designed in a very haphazard, "gut instinct" kind of way (Compare a modern RPG, any of them, with a solid modern Euro board game like Agricola...). I'm just not seeing anything like that yet in the 5e previews.</p><p></p><p>Yes. Hasbro gets too much abuse. I doubt they're meaningfully harming the D&D brand, and they're probably helping it quite a lot.</p><p></p><p>I don't know how to answer this one because it has too many negatives. But no, I don't begrudge people different tastes. I just wish they had broader tastes.</p><p></p><p>I... this is something that's been bothering me a lot recently. Comic books, fantasy novels... there's just this fear of creativity that's been driving me insane, and pushing me out of the fandom. Maybe its not 5e that's disappointing me so much as it is the entire fan community. The biggest innovation in fantasy gaming in recent history was probably the Dragon Age universe, and it's just D&D where every single D&D race or class was given a tiny, tiny change, so that its just different enough to seem new and exciting if you don't think about it too hard, but its familiar enough that its comforting. Its like when a foreign movie becomes really popular in the US, and you realize that it became popular because its exactly like US movies but with a very slight tinge of unfamiliarity that makes people feel like they're avant garde when they watch. I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of things that are supposed to be different and unique and wondrous, but which are actually just too... comfortably unchallenging.</p><p></p><p>I just want to see something innovative! It doesn't have to be that crazy. You know what would make me truly excited, that I just thought of right now? If they took Vancian magic, put it in the game, and actually had the balls to make it a genuine part of the physics of the game universe. I HATE Vancian magic, but if they did that I'd be happy because it would open up new ideas. Maybe if you stab a wizard in the brain, STUFF comes out. Like, explosions and summoned extraterrestrial badgers and junk. Because he crammed all those things in there earlier in the day. We could work that idea in all over the setting, and come up with interesting ideas based on it. But we won't, because we need room for sorcerers, with an entirely different magical physics. And Clerics. And Psions. And Druids. The concern for giving everyone their fan service prevents that fairly retro innovation. We can't just sit down and do something genuinely right, because that might exclude people who like other things. So we'll do everything badly, and promise that a module will fix it someday.</p><p></p><p>No. </p><p></p><p>I'll be happy that other people are happy. But that's it. I'll run my 4e game for as long as it gives my players joy. I don't know what I'll do after that.</p><p></p><p>If 5e ever comes around to telling me something new and different that I can do in 5e that I can't do now, I'll come around. But until then, no. 3e did that. 3.5 did that. 4e did that. 4e Heroes, uh, didn't... But 5e could. And really that's all it will take. I'll get all excited about the new idea and start making character and campaign ideas in my head and be all for the new system, because I'm a very, very pro-new fan. But that won't happen as long as the 5e previews promise me nothing but more fightery fighters, more wizardy wizards, and more thiefy thieves. I've done that.</p><p></p><p>Well, this turned into a downer. But I'm down, so I guess everybody else gets to be too. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 5977398, member: 40961"] Yes. No. "Giving it a try" with an RPG typically involves investing a significant amount of time and energy. I don't have that much of it for gaming. So I will not be trying out a game that I have good reason to think that I will not like. I will, at least, borrow the books and read them, if anyone I know buys them. I'd like to at least learn what I can from seeing how a group of professionals addressed the issues of RPG design. Yes. Yes. For a given definition of "audience," yes. I just think they're wrong. Both the designers, and the audience. I guess my biggest fear about 5e is that it will be forgettable. 3e genuinely advanced the technology of RPG design. So did 4e. Even if you hate the implementation, the ideas that were utilized were cutting edge. I don't mean stuff like "Everyone uses the same power structure," I mean stuff like "We genuinely spent significant time building equal spotlight time into the very structure of the game." These are game design ideas that are objectively good, and that hadn't featured very prominently in RPGs... in the gaming world, RPGs tend to be fairly unique in being designed in a very haphazard, "gut instinct" kind of way (Compare a modern RPG, any of them, with a solid modern Euro board game like Agricola...). I'm just not seeing anything like that yet in the 5e previews. Yes. Hasbro gets too much abuse. I doubt they're meaningfully harming the D&D brand, and they're probably helping it quite a lot. I don't know how to answer this one because it has too many negatives. But no, I don't begrudge people different tastes. I just wish they had broader tastes. I... this is something that's been bothering me a lot recently. Comic books, fantasy novels... there's just this fear of creativity that's been driving me insane, and pushing me out of the fandom. Maybe its not 5e that's disappointing me so much as it is the entire fan community. The biggest innovation in fantasy gaming in recent history was probably the Dragon Age universe, and it's just D&D where every single D&D race or class was given a tiny, tiny change, so that its just different enough to seem new and exciting if you don't think about it too hard, but its familiar enough that its comforting. Its like when a foreign movie becomes really popular in the US, and you realize that it became popular because its exactly like US movies but with a very slight tinge of unfamiliarity that makes people feel like they're avant garde when they watch. I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of things that are supposed to be different and unique and wondrous, but which are actually just too... comfortably unchallenging. I just want to see something innovative! It doesn't have to be that crazy. You know what would make me truly excited, that I just thought of right now? If they took Vancian magic, put it in the game, and actually had the balls to make it a genuine part of the physics of the game universe. I HATE Vancian magic, but if they did that I'd be happy because it would open up new ideas. Maybe if you stab a wizard in the brain, STUFF comes out. Like, explosions and summoned extraterrestrial badgers and junk. Because he crammed all those things in there earlier in the day. We could work that idea in all over the setting, and come up with interesting ideas based on it. But we won't, because we need room for sorcerers, with an entirely different magical physics. And Clerics. And Psions. And Druids. The concern for giving everyone their fan service prevents that fairly retro innovation. We can't just sit down and do something genuinely right, because that might exclude people who like other things. So we'll do everything badly, and promise that a module will fix it someday. No. I'll be happy that other people are happy. But that's it. I'll run my 4e game for as long as it gives my players joy. I don't know what I'll do after that. If 5e ever comes around to telling me something new and different that I can do in 5e that I can't do now, I'll come around. But until then, no. 3e did that. 3.5 did that. 4e did that. 4e Heroes, uh, didn't... But 5e could. And really that's all it will take. I'll get all excited about the new idea and start making character and campaign ideas in my head and be all for the new system, because I'm a very, very pro-new fan. But that won't happen as long as the 5e previews promise me nothing but more fightery fighters, more wizardy wizards, and more thiefy thieves. I've done that. Well, this turned into a downer. But I'm down, so I guess everybody else gets to be too. :p [/QUOTE]
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