Does a Charmed Monster / Person gain experience?

[Kor]

Are there any rules regarding charmed monsters or people gaining experience while adventuring with the party? Do they gain a full share of experience?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I don't see why they wouldn't; being charmed only affects how you relate to the person who's charmed you. How did cohorts get XP, again?

 

[cmrscorpio]

Cohorts and xp

(XP that the PC recieved) x (cohort's level)/(PC level) = Cohort's xp

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).
Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.

I hate the minutia of experience points.

 

[Kor]

A discussion that came up at our gaming table, wasn't in concern whether the charmed individual should be earning experience per se, but rather should they be deemed a full party member and be taking a full share?

Here are two different sides of this:

#1: The party needs a rogue for a dungeon, so rather than recruiting through normal means, a party member charms the rogue, and keeps him charmed during the adventure. During this time, the rogue assists the party in combats and disarming traps. As the rogue is performing as a full party member, shouldn't he earn a full share of experience -- thusly reducing the experience gained by all the party members?

#2: By expending a charm person / monster spell, a character is utilizing one of his classes resources (like a druid's animal companion ability). Accordingly, the charmed individual should not reduce the party's share in anyway... unless he continues to adventure with the party once the charm spell has worn off?


Most of our party favor's #2. In our exact situation, my enchantment optimized beguiler used his staff of Charm Monster to charm a Large Red Dragon. The red dragon, along with our 3 7th level party members, and 1 6th level, is being quite helpfull. The fortunate part was that the dragon wanted to enter a chasm to search out a black dragon enemy. Our goal was to enter the chasm to explore and recover a lost dwarf. Once charmed, and its disposition adjusted to Helpful, the dragon happily agreed for us to mutually work together to accomplish our objectives.

The dragon is definately proving his merit in combat, but because of this, the DM has queried whether it should also be taking an experience share as a full party member. As my character is optimized around enchantment, and did luck out with a poor will save from the DM, I am also leaning towards #2 above, but unlike an animal companion it is essentially performing against its will.

Any further thoughts out there on this? Should a charmed individual gain a full party share of experience as a member of the party (thus reducing the experience being gained by all invovled), or should the Charming ability simply be deemed a class ability which should not further detriment the character, other than by loss of the spell slot?

I was hoping this had been officially addressed somewhere, but it seems like it has not.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

No reason in my opinion the NPC shouldn't get a full XP share.

If you charm a guy and manage to get him to adventure with you and he contributes as much as any of the PCs you didn't loose much in the way of resources (in fact your investment is paying off several times the value of a typical 4th level spell).

 

[darthkilmor]

#2: By expending a charm person / monster spell, a character is utilizing one of his classes resources (like a druid's animal companion ability). Accordingly, the charmed individual should not reduce the party's share in anyway... unless he continues to adventure with the party once the charm spell has worn off?

Most of our party favor's #2.

That sounds like "The party favors whatever gives them the most experience at this time". If the PC's were charmed into assisting some NPC on a dangerous quest, would they favor not getting any experience for the whole thing? After all, the NPC is utilizing his resources, why should his share of exp decrease?

 

[eamon]

I'd say the NPC / PC which is charmed gets full XP and counts against XP for others as normal. If a charmed party member isn't comparable to a full party member, you could run it as a cohort, and not cost / hardly cost the party any XP.

Incidentally, even if you let the "extra" party member cost XP, it's usually not the case that the party actually is getting less XP - after all, they're also able to deal with hard CR's and as such gaining more XP on that side again. And, of course, they should get XP for charming an opponent in the first place, if that's a challenge, anyhow.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I play in the same group as Kor (am one of those players that thought the Red Dragon should not earn a full XP share). I would like to add some information to the discussion:

First - whether the charmed creature "Deserves" a share of the XP is irrelevant. The Red Dragon will likely not be adventuring with the party after the Charm Monster wears off (or even earlier if he attacks a different party member and we are forced to fight him), so any XP he gains is not going to have a bearing on the campaign in any way.

Secondly, we are playing a published campaign that the DM described as "I feel that some of these adventures are quite difficult - feel free to optimize your characters." at the beginning of the campaign. There will be no "catch up" adventures if the party falls behind on XP - and it's safe to say the Dragon will not be joining the party permanently. I question the survivability of the characters should their XP be gimped by 20% (or more - depending if the Beguiler continues charming creatures). I assume the campaign adventures were written assuming the Players would recieve all the XP, or at least share it with a permanent NPC (so that XP would still benifit the party in adventures to come).

Thirdly, I am in full support of an NPC joining the group earning a full share of XP. They should also earn a full share of loot.

However, the circumstances are different in this case for a number of reasons:

a) This creature is only helpful to the Beguiler in the group - the rest of the party are still facing an attitude of Hostile from a CE monster. The only character that is safe from this creature at present is our Beguiler, however a full share of party XP will reduce XP earned from all party members - including the ones that must be prepared for the inevitable clash between the rest of the party and this dragon.

b) NPC's that could be trusted were available in this campaign and turned down by a consensus of the players. In this case the Beguiler has been using the Dragon as his personal pet, largely to the unnease of the rest of the party. Plans are already in play to kill this Dragon ASAP.

c) The Player (Kor) who is playing the Beguiler has invested more into the ability to Charm monsters than anything else in his entire character. His Feats, Skills, Attributes, and Loot have all been invested in allowing the Charm, increasing the Charm DC, allowing the Dipomacy to work with charm etc. If the Monster is just going to replace a NPC the party could have simply allowed to come along - was there any point to all that investment?

d) The Dragon is only under control via a Charm Monster spell. One well-placed Dispel Magic will have the party completely hosed. (Part of the reason the rest of the party is discussing the hasty demise of said dragon). This is not a situation that is normally a concern for an NPC joining a party.

Kor pointed out this thread to me via email and I thought I should point out that there is much more to the argument that the Dragon should not recieve a full share of Party XP than "XP greed"

 

[mvincent]

No reason in my opinion the NPC shouldn't get a full XP share.

I typically only give XP to PC's... even if they are unconscious, in a different room etc; the PC's basically get XP just for their player being at the table.

Conversely: by RAW cohort's, animal companions, special mounts, intelligent magic items, etc. do not get XP. Similarly, charmed, summoned, dominated, paid, animated etc. creatures should not get part of your XP, as you have theoretically used resources (like spells) to acquire them.

Unpaid allies (say, in a war) could be a different matter, but I typically just have them do their own thing in the background anyways (i.e. killing minor things that are never added to the PC's kill list).

Having to share table (i.e. 'spotlight') time with an NPC can cause resentment in players... but having to also share your XP can just add insult to injury.

 

[darthkilmor]

First - whether the charmed creature "Deserves" a share of the XP is irrelevant. The Red Dragon will likely not be adventuring with the party after the Charm Monster wears off (or even earlier if he attacks a different party member and we are forced to fight him), so any XP he gains is not going to have a bearing on the campaign in any way.

Secondly, we are playing a published campaign that the DM described as "I feel that some of these adventures are quite difficult - feel free to optimize your characters." at the beginning of the campaign. There will be no "catch up" adventures if the party falls behind on XP - and it's safe to say the Dragon will not be joining the party permanently. I question the survivability of the characters should their XP be gimped by 20% (or more - depending if the Beguiler continues charming creatures). I assume the campaign adventures were written assuming the Players would recieve all the XP, or at least share it with a permanent NPC (so that XP would still benifit the party in adventures to come).

Thirdly, I am in full support of an NPC joining the group earning a full share of XP. They should also earn a full share of loot.

However, the circumstances are different in this case for a number of reasons:

a) This creature is only helpful to the Beguiler in the group - the rest of the party are still facing an attitude of Hostile from a CE monster. The only character that is safe from this creature at present is our Beguiler, however a full share of party XP will reduce XP earned from all party members - including the ones that must be prepared for the inevitable clash between the rest of the party and this dragon.

b) NPC's that could be trusted were available in this campaign and turned down by a consensus of the players. In this case the Beguiler has been using the Dragon as his personal pet, largely to the unnease of the rest of the party. Plans are already in play to kill this Dragon ASAP.

c) The Player (Kor) who is playing the Beguiler has invested more into the ability to Charm monsters than anything else in his entire character. His Feats, Skills, Attributes, and Loot have all been invested in allowing the Charm, increasing the Charm DC, allowing the Dipomacy to work with charm etc. If the Monster is just going to replace a NPC the party could have simply allowed to come along - was there any point to all that investment?

d) The Dragon is only under control via a Charm Monster spell. One well-placed Dispel Magic will have the party completely hosed. (Part of the reason the rest of the party is discussing the hasty demise of said dragon). This is not a situation that is normally a concern for an NPC joining a party.

Kor pointed out this thread to me via email and I thought I should point out that there is much more to the argument that the Dragon should not recieve a full share of Party XP than "XP greed"

I'm not sure I agree that the dragon should be hostile to the rest of the party. Reading the Charm person description:

Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell.

Certainly seems to say the dragon is favorably viewing your allies as well(until they attack). Aside from that, even if he Wasn't, the beguiler in this case should be able to diplomacy the dragon into viewing you guys in a favorable light.
Also, was he only able to cast charm monster once? Will he not just cast it again when the spell wears off or slightly beforehand ?
Also, if he keeps charming monsters, then as someone pointed out , you should be more able to handle encounters so if you got less XP then it wouldnt matter.

Specifically for the red dragon case, if I were you I'd argue to the DM that dragons advance by age, not class levels, so they don't actually get any XP.