Does a Death Ward Protect against Phantasmal Killer?

[Zhure]

Let me take a crack at it:

(paraphrased from the DMG, page 74) Death Attacks
1 - prevent raise dead from working on the subject.
2 - slay instantly without stabilization.
3 - treat the character as if he were at -10 hit points
4 - are protected against by Death Ward.

Since Phantasmal Killer doesn't mention that Raise Dead won't work on it's target, it's a hint that PK isn't a death effect.


From the Glossary:
"Death: A spell domain composed of nine divine spells
and a granted power themed around the concept of
death. Also a spell descriptor denoting spells and
effects that slay living creatures. Creatures slain by a
death effect cannot be raised by raise dead. Either resurrection or true resurrection is required to revivify
such a corpse. See also dead."

emphasis added

This strongly implies a link between the death descriptor and death effect spells.

Greg

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I don't think Phantasmal Killer is a Death effect per the D&D definition, I just question whether it constitutes a magical death attack. It is a save or die spell, the only difference being that there are two saves.

I have also read a reference in one of the FAQ's that makes me wonder if the sage doesn't also view Phantasmal Killer as death effect spell.

I would love an official ruling because we originally assumed Phantasmal Killer was a death spell until recently, when we looked at the spell descriptors.

 

[-Eä-]

I would argue that Death Ward only protects against death spells and magical death effects only if those are always death spells and magical death effects.

Hereby I say that the last sentance is redundant, only there for examples of effects that are not always death effects.


Phanstasmal Killer isn't always a death effect, as a paladin is immune to it, and is therefore not a death effect to a paladin.
Disintegrate is not always a death effect: Oozes receives only damage, and is therefore not always a death effect.
Hit point loss (even to -10) is not always a death effect (see Tarrasque) and is therefore not negated.

This is how I see it: As a premise I have: death spells and magical death effects must always be a death effect, despite race, template and so on...

 

[Vecna]

Don't feed the trolls. Especially if they have the [Munchkin] and [Rule-Lawyer] subtypes.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re

I don't think Phantasmal Killer is a Death effect per the D&D definition, I just question whether it constitutes a magical death attack. It is a save or die spell, the only difference being that there are two saves.

So is disintegrate, but that's not a 'death effect' either.

I have also read a reference in one of the FAQ's that makes me wonder if the sage doesn't also view Phantasmal Killer as death effect spell.

If you're going to drop 'facts' like that in it behooves you to actually tell us where you saw it. All too frequently when people say 'I think I remember seeing X' they mean 'I would like to have seen X so much that I have convinced myself I did'.

J

 

[Celtavian]

Re

On Page 4 of the Monsters FAQ on the Wizards website, the Sage is asked if Phantasmal Killer will kill a troll.

The Sage replied "that regneration does not protect against death effects or other special effects that cause death such as massive damage, drowning, starvation, or having one's constitution score lessened to zero."

His answer might be construed as meaning he views Phantasmal Killer as a death effect. Nowhere does he state that the spell falls into the second category of "other special effects that cause death".

Nowhere does he indicate that death caused by fear is not a death effect, but a "special effect that causes death".

Disintegrate is not a save or die in the same way as any normal death spell or even Phantasmal Killer. Disintegrate kills by turning you to a pile of dust. If you are an extremely large creature, one could even rule that disintegrate only destroys one of your limbs or a part of your body. If one is an ooze, you could rule that only a portion of the ooze is destroyed.

You can disintegrate a sword or wall just as easily as you could a living thing. You cannot however cast Phantasmal Killer or any of the Death spells on a non-living object including undead.

In practice, disintegrate brings about death, but technically it is not a death spell because it can be used in many other ways. It does not solely deal out death. Phantasmal Killer on the other hand does nothing but cause the death of a living target.

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re

Phantasmal Killer on the other hand does nothing but cause the death of a living target.

So the whole part about it pulling your worst fear from your mind and make you think your experiencing it is nothing?

I believe the quote that you took from the Sage could equally mean that he felt that Phantasmal Killer was an "other special effect". To me, the death from fear by Phantasmal Killer is not much different than death from massive damage - both cause severe trauma to the body and it's this trauma that kills you. Even if you believe the illusion, your body could be strong enough to withstand this trauma (as simulated by the Fort save). Phantasmal Killer doesn't kill you, your body's response to it does.

IceBear

 

[FlimFlam]

Summon Monster & Phantasmal Killer work very similar too.

Both create something that CAN kill you, but might not.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

It could be construed either way if one goes by the wording. Such is the ambiguity of the answer, but nonetheless, the first words he uses is death effect.

Nowhere in the answer does he in anyway indicate that just because fear is the cause of death that it is not a death effect. I see no reason why the sage would not have indicated that the fear component was different from a death effect.

As I said before, such answers are open to interpretation because they are poorly written. Oh well. We will just go by group consensus until an official revision is made.

 

[Pielorinho]

Definitely looks to me that death ward protects vs. spells and effects with the [death] descriptor. This use of descriptors is one of the great things about 3E, and I think it's specifically supposed to avoid such ambiguity; whenever possible, assume that descriptors come into play.

And a few other notes:
1) Guys, insults aren't allowed. Tone it down, especially y'all who know better, please!
2) Incredibly long posts are difficult to read. If you can't make your point in two paragraphs, maybe you should reconsider your point.
3) "Effect," as a noun, means "result." "Affect," as a noun, means "the conscious subjective aspect of an emotion considered apart from bodily changes." (You'll almost never correctly use "affect" as a noun -- stick with "effect.")

Daniel