Does a polymorphed dwarf lose accsess to Dwarven Defender?

[DarkJester]

3.5 polymorph changes your type to that of the creature you turn into. If a dwarven fighter/ dwarven defender was polymorphed into a troll, would he lose accsess to his class features? I'm tempted to say yes based on page 16 of complete warrior, but I'm not sure I want to agree with this.

It seems very odd that a character would simply forget all his defensive training abilities simply because he finds himself in a new form.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Rules As Written... yes, unfortunately. No dwarf, no defender.

This is exactly the kind of thing the 3.5 DMG wisely avoided by allowing you to keep PrC features even if you ceased to qualify for the benefits.

My merely human mind cannot begin to comprehend what fell-spawned ineffable 'reason' from the very depths of pits undreamt of by the sane compelled WotC to put that nonsense in Complete Warrior.

I can't think of a single case where this makes the game better, and countless ones where it makes it worse.

Polymorphed dwarf? No defender.
Reformed assassin? Reformed class featureless rogue, perhaps.
Fallen knight protector? Pity you forgot how to Supreme Cleave.

In the handful of cases where a PrC possessed abilities dependent on a particular alignment or other easily losable feature (like the Ur Priest or Blackguard), that PrC included an 'ex-such-and-such' section.

In the name of all that is holy - verily, all that mortal minds can comprehend without in one fell thought turning to unspeakable eldritch cacodaemonical jelly - ignore that foul sidebar in Complete Warrior.

 

[youspoonybard]

Assuming DM's quickly put a stop to crap like Cle3/Wiz1 Theurges (I think that's how it went, anyway), I have to agree with Mog.

But there was a reason for it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Assuming DM's quickly put a stop to crap like Cle3/Wiz1 Theurges (I think that's how it went, anyway), I have to agree with Mog.

Cle1/Wiz3* might be what you were thinking... Imbue With Spell Ability grants cleric spells. But that one works even with the Complete Warrior rule as soon as you hit Theurge 2, since you can now cast 2nd level divine spells even without Imbue With Spell Ability running.

-Hyp.

*though you need at least 5 HD to gain a 2nd level spell, so you need racial hit dice or levels in another class to make up the deficit.

 

[The Souljourner]

What the Moogle said.

-The Souljourner

 

[Egres]

Rules As Written... yes, unfortunately. No dwarf, no defender.



I can't think of a single case where this makes the game better, and countless ones where it makes it worse.
[/I].

I'm arguing in another thread on WotC boards about the Warforged Juggernaut losing its Healing Immunity (that is a BIG drawback) if it loses access to the PrC.(losing the Str score to qualify for the Power Attack feat,for example.)

This would be a positive example.

 

[Derren]

This is exactly the kind of thing the 3.5 DMG wisely avoided by allowing you to keep PrC features even if you ceased to qualify for the benefits.

But creates the problem that now a dwarf can polymorph into an elf, become a Bladesinger or High Mage and then polymorph back while still advancing normallyin this elf only PRCs.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

But creates the problem that now a dwarf can polymorph into an elf, become a Bladesinger or High Mage and then polymorph back while still advancing normallyin this elf only PRCs.

To me, that's not a problem. Either it's not possible because the DM declares it so, or it *should* work.

Why does one have to be an elf to become a bladesinger?

One theory is that only elves have the natural magical ability to thus blend it with swordsmanship. But that's obviously not true. Any race with actual spell-like abilities, including gnomes, would be *more* qualified to become a bladesinger if that were the case.

A second theory is that Corellon or some other elven god restricts the PrC to elves only. In that case, it's divinely-granted powers would never work for a polymorphed dwarf in the first place.

A third theory, the one to which I would hold, is that the path of the bladesinger is an elven art, known only to elves, practiced only by elves. If a polymorphed dwarf can bluff his way into an elven enclave and learn the secrets of the order, more power to him! Kudos on a job well done; if the character in question is also an arcane trickster, he's laible to get slapped on the back (and to check his pouch after each slap) for his grand jest against the bladesingers. Note that a halfling would seem more likely to do this - it would be an odd dwarf indeed who tried.

 

[Sejs]

The counter-argument that comes to mind on the issue:

Hypothesis - Polymorph does not actually change your race; a dwarf polymorphed into a troll is still a dwarf.

Reasoning - A member of a given race, by definition, has all the features of that race barring a situation or magic that temporarily suppresses, supplants, or alters those features. A troll has all of the troll racial abilities: giant type, stat mods, regen, scent, natural weapons and armor, etc. A dwarf that has been polymorphed into a troll gains access to some of a troll's abilities, but not all of them. The dwarf does not gain scent, does not gain regeneration, and does not have his mental stats changed as a result of the polymorph. He does not natively possess all of the features of that race, hence he is not a member of that race. Since his race does not change, at no point does he stop being a dwarf, and so does not lose access to his PrC.



Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Allowing access to a PrC even if the prereqs are gone is also, to my understanding, prone to another kind of abuse. From reading other threads, I gather there's a psionic power in the XPH which allows you to go back and redo feat choices you've taken in the past. If you can keep class abilities despite not having the prereqs anymore, then all the onerous feat reqs for PrC entry can be taken to gain access, then swapped out afterward by means of this power.