Does a polymorphed dwarf lose accsess to Dwarven Defender?

[MoogleEmpMog]

Allowing access to a PrC even if the prereqs are gone is also, to my understanding, prone to another kind of abuse. From reading other threads, I gather there's a psionic power in the XPH which allows you to go back and redo feat choices you've taken in the past. If you can keep class abilities despite not having the prereqs anymore, then all the onerous feat reqs for PrC entry can be taken to gain access, then swapped out afterward by means of this power.

Onerous feat reqs? What are you talking about? All feats are useful and valid and wonderful.

Seriously, though, I'm aware of that particular dodge.

It doesn't bother me very much because, really, if a player is willing to go through all that work to get rid of the feat prereqs for a PrC, he's welcome to do the work. If he asked me as the DM, I'd likely change the prereqs around, anyway. If it seemed likely to cause a problem (the entire party going psionic for a level just to get that power, for instance), I would houserule it away.

If I were the player, well... I'd ask the DM, or find another class, because I'm not up on psionics. But it's usually a weak exploit, anyway, and one just screaming for the DM to punish you for it. Traded out Iron Will for something more 'useful,' did you? A pity that vampire just dominated you and you failed the save by 2 points...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, my point was to draw attention to another valid rules reason for the "lose PrC if you lose the prereqs" rule. There are at least two abuses, mentioned in this thread, that are thus stymied.

Sure you can say "oh, I'd just hand-wave it as a DM, or if it got bad disallow it," but that doesn't make the reason the core rules adopted the stance any less valid. They're trying to build a balanced game without cheesy exploits, rather than leave the DM to his own devices when it comes to finding and disallowing each one as a player tries it on him.

As far as:

But it's usually a weak exploit, anyway, and one just screaming for the DM to punish you for it. Traded out Iron Will for something more 'useful,' did you?

...sure, trading out Iron Will may be painful. But those aren't the feats I'm talking about. Endurance. Run. Toughness. Spell Focus: Conjuration. Spell Focus: Divination. etc. etc. There are a lot of PrC's that are built with specifically weak feats as prereqs, to balanced particularly powerful abilities in the class. You pay an opportunity cost in feats to gain the powers of the class. Allowing one to swap out all the feats after gaining the prize unbalances these classes.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've taken both Endurance and Run out of a non-human, non-fighter's feats before, and not regretted it. So those fall under the same category as Iron Will.

The others are iffy, though, especially Toughness. Honestly, I've houseruled Toughness out of the game entirely in every single 3.0/3.5 game I've DMed. It shouldn't be a feat, it shouldn't be a prereq, and Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior) should replace it outright in the next edition.

I wouldn't disallow either of the exploits listed in this thread (although, if memory serves, the WotC Character Optimization board came to the conclusion that the Mystic Theurge one doesn't work). I think their potential to be broken is relatively small. By contrast, the Warforged Juggernaut exploit Egres is talking about is a major one, and one that flies in the face of the intent of the rules.

When 99% of the cases where this rule is applied are a problem (assassin losing his sneak attack if he becomes good, dwarven defender losing his defensive stance while polymorphed, etc.) and 1% of the cases it fixes a non-broken rules loophole... this rule is a problem.

If the psionic power makes PrC requirements broken, nerf the power. Same with qualifying for MT using that exploit, should it work.

To build a balanced game, nerf the simplest, most isolated element first.

 

[Scharlata]

3.5 polymorph changes your type to that of the creature you turn into. [...]

Hi!

And what about Racial feats as from the Races of Stone. Becoming a nondwarf you lose the access to your racial feats which have a prereq to be a dwarf just as you lose access to your Dodge feat if you ever have Dex 12 or less?

Kind regards

 

[Lord Pendragon]

When 99% of the cases where this rule is applied are a problem (assassin losing his sneak attack if he becomes good, dwarven defender losing his defensive stance while polymorphed, etc.) and 1% of the cases it fixes a non-broken rules loophole... this rule is a problem.

I don't agree. I think an assassin losing his special abilities if he becomes good is perfectly sensible. The techniques he used to use are evil and thus barred from him. If he wants to use them again, he becomes evil. It works out just fine. Nor do I think that it's inappropriate for a PC who transforms into a troll to lose his Dwarven Defender abilities, as those abilities make use of a dwarf's unique characteristics in their execution. *shrug* Just a difference of opinion in which scenario needs to be fixed, and which is, flavorwise, just fine, it seems.

To build a balanced game, nerf the simplest, most isolated element first.

But denying the use of abilities that you no longer have the prereqs for is the simplest solution. It's also the most sensible solution, at least IMO. If you're no longer a dwarf, you can't execute combat maneuvers that depend on you being a dwarf. What could be simpler than that?

 

[Egres]

I don't agree. I think an assassin losing his special abilities if he becomes good is perfectly sensible. The techniques he used to use are evil and thus barred from him. If he wants to use them again, he becomes evil. It works out just fine. Nor do I think that it's inappropriate for a PC who transforms into a troll to lose his Dwarven Defender abilities, as those abilities make use of a dwarf's unique characteristics in their execution. *shrug* Just a difference of opinion in which scenario needs to be fixed, and which is, flavorwise, just fine, it seems.But denying the use of abilities that you no longer have the prereqs for is the simplest solution. It's also the most sensible solution, at least IMO. If you're no longer a dwarf, you can't execute combat maneuvers that depend on you being a dwarf. What could be simpler than that?

May i ask you then what do you think about the Juggernaut issue?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

May i ask you then what do you think about the Juggernaut issue?

You'd have to explain it in more detail, or link to the other thread where you've done so. I don't have any of the Eberron material (where I believe the Warforged are from,) so I'm not familiar with the issue.

 

[Gumby]

You'd have to explain it in more detail, or link to the other thread where you've done so. I don't have any of the Eberron material (where I believe the Warforged are from,) so I'm not familiar with the issue.

The Warforged Juggernaut PrC is sort of an evolved Warforged who, instead of only receiving half-healing from healing spells like normal Warforged (as they're somewhat half-alive), receives no benefit whatsoever from healing spells and must be repaired or receive Repair Construct spells instead. (They give up their metaphorical "humanity" to embrace the construct half of their being.)

From context, I'm assuming that the argument is that if they lose the Strength required to take the feat required for the PrC (Improved Bull Rush?), then do they lose the Prestige Class, and do they now follow the previous rules for being the recipient of Cure spells?

The whole thing sounds pretty potty to me, but I can appreciate the theoretical wrangling side of it.

 

[Majere]

One option is to apply the true sight test.
If you look at a dwarf polymorphed into a troll with truesight what do you see ?
A dwarf
Therefore the dwarf has not stopped being a dwarf he is just under the effect of a spell. And thusly does not lose his access to dwarven defender.

I would personally impliment a house rule thus.
"Spell effects cannot be used to help qualify or disqualify a character from a class or feat."

This solves both the bad casses, and the stupid broken explotations like Cleric1/Wiz3 theurges or the warforged class healing issues.

Majere

 

[apieros]

3.5 polymorph changes your type to that of the creature you turn into. If a dwarven fighter/ dwarven defender was polymorphed into a troll, would he lose accsess to his class features? I'm tempted to say yes based on page 16 of complete warrior, but I'm not sure I want to agree with this.

It seems very odd that a character would simply forget all his defensive training abilities simply because he finds himself in a new form.

According to the "polymorph" series of spell articles on WOTC's website, you do not loose class features while polymorphed.

Forget PrC's, prereqs, becoming a bladesinger and all that. You do not lose class features. According to the article.