Does a template change a monster's role?

[BLACKDIRGE]

Does a template change a monster's role? You would think so, since the template actually designates one. However, if you look in the MM, you will see that this is not always the case. The vampire lord rogue is still a lurker, not a controller or a skirmisher like the templates says.

So which is it? Does the template change the role? And if it does, do you recalculate the monster's hit points and attack bonuses based on the new role. The DMG only offers the vaguest bit of advice on this matter.

BD

 

[keterys]

Ah, but the 'rogue' template probably makes it a lurker 2 templates, no base creature? Madness!

Or, just, a monster, built in its own way, using tips from the templates.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Ah, but the 'rogue' template probably makes it a lurker 2 templates, no base creature? Madness!

Or, just, a monster, built in its own way, using tips from the templates.

Why would a human rogue need the "rogue" template. Wouldn't the vampire in question simply be built as a rogue NPC, and then the vampire lord template applied?

Hmm, may have to ask the sage on this one.

BD

 

[SadisticFishing]

Look at what it does and treat it appropriately. The players never learn what sort of monster they are - they're just guidelines.

 

[keterys]

Sorry, to be more clear - it isn't that they took a human rogue and applied the vampire lord template. Look at its strength, for instance.

They made a vampire rogue using the monster rules, and called it a day. It uses ideas from the vampire lord template and rogue template/class for its powers, but it's its own beastie. Which is well, and good.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Sorry, to be more clear - it isn't that they took a human rogue and applied the vampire lord template. Look at its strength, for instance.

They made a vampire rogue using the monster rules, and called it a day. It uses ideas from the vampire lord template and rogue template/class for its powers, but it's its own beastie. Which is well, and good.

No problem. I see where you coming from, and it does look like WoTC did what you suggest. However, these looser design parameters can be a bit frustrating when you're a 3rd-party publisher and freelance game designer trying to master the new system, and not a single monster matches the guidelines in the DMG.

Damn it, I want my rigid 3.5 design parameters back. =]

I think I'll just email WoTC customer service and get the official answer.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

No problem. I see where you coming from, and it does look like WoTC did what you suggest. However, these looser design parameters can be a bit frustrating when you're a 3rd-party publisher and freelance game designer trying to master the new system, and not a single monster matches the guidelines in the DMG.

I can tell you that, although I'm not "official", having worked with the system for a while and getting a little more insight into the adventure design philosophies of WOTC, I can say 99% that the monster in question wasn't designed using any template.

The idea of 4e is that EVERY monster you make is unique and thought out by itself without letting any tables or templates make decisions for you. You use the guidelines in the DMG in order to estimate about where the creature should be then you adjust things to make the monster more unique.

So, if a table says that the creature should have a Ref of 18 and you feel this monster is especially fast, maybe raise the Ref by one and lower the Fort by one. You really can't go wrong as long as you don't make the adjustments more than a couple of points away from the baseline.

 

[Grazzt]

The idea of 4e is that EVERY monster you make is unique and thought out by itself without letting any tables or templates make decisions for you. You use the guidelines in the DMG in order to estimate about where the creature should be then you adjust things to make the monster more unique.

So, if a table says that the creature should have a Ref of 18 and you feel this monster is especially fast, maybe raise the Ref by one and lower the Fort by one. You really can't go wrong as long as you don't make the adjustments more than a couple of points away from the baseline.

Pretty much sums it up. Gone are the days of the "3.5 rigid parameters" ...thankfully.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Pretty much sums it up. Gone are the days of the "3.5 rigid parameters" ...thankfully.

Yup, it's a different animal alright. Not that I dislike designing with 4.0, it's just so different than working with 3.5. I think I'm going to really like the freedom the new edition gives me to create...but I can't help pining for a few hard guidelines here and there.

BD

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Maybe we should have some kind of "How can I use the DMG guidelines to create monsters at least as awesome as those in the MM" thread?

I was working on a Diamond Throne conversion (and I promise I will open a Thread one day for that...), and created a few Paragon Tier Giant monsters, just to get a feel for the system and how I could replicate the "flavor" of Arcana Evolved Giants.

Using just the straight guidelines gives very good looking result. But I think there is much tweaking possible still.

(Slightly Off-Topic)
1) Ability Scores
Remember, they only list "averages" for the highest stat of each ability pair (STR/CON; DEX/INT; WIS/CHA). This means if you really want to, you could probably increase one pair and decrease another pair. So, if Giants really don't need an INT or Dex of 18 as level 15 monster, don't give it to them. They need more WIS/CHA anyway.

2) Damage
The damage expression basically work to nearly 100 % with the suggested ability scores by level. If you increase a Brutes Strength, you should probably adjust the damage it deals accordingly - reduce the dice size and increase the bonus number.

3) Breaking Guidelines
If you feel like it, you can "break" the guidelines even more. Mearls once posted he created a monster that basically dealt double damage for its level, but had only half the HP, for a swingier combat. You could so similar adjustments. Use the baseline, and, say, increase the average damage by 20 % and reduce HP by 20 %. Or reduce all its defenses by 4 (increasing to hit-chance and thus average damage against the monster by 20 % - but notice that controller-like effects become more effective, too) The math will still work out similar on "average".

(back to topic)

The templates basically add abilities that make the monster work best in the new role. A template that, for example, would give a monster the ability to become insubstantial or invisible would make a monster a good lurker automatically, since switching between a "hard to hit" form and a "agressive" form is basically their shtick.