Does Exceptional Deflection count against Magic Missiles?

[Hypersmurf]

Exceptional Deflection only works on ranged attacks (even ranged touch attacks, but that doesn't say anything at all about spells that have a ranged touch attack component, because the main clause of the feat's rule has already excluded all spells, by definition.).

But a specific rule overrides a general rule, and the specific rule is that Exceptional Deflection includes spells which require a ranged touch attack as ranged attacks.

The main clause of the feat's rule has not already excluded all spells 'by definition', because it has modified the definition of 'ranged attack' (for its own purposes) to include some spells. Namely, those which require a ranged touch attack.

Here is the sentence from the feat text:
Benefit: The character can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.

Do you agree that a character with Exceptional Deflection can deflect a spell that requires a ranged touch attack as if it were an arrow? Or do you feel that the parenthetical clause is invalid and thus can be ignored, since it contradicts the glossary definition of 'ranged attack'?

-Hyp.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Yes, I was reading the feat incorrectly.

You didn't see that.

I'm not the droid you're looking for.

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But Magic Missile still wouldn't be affected.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But Magic Missile still wouldn't be affected.

I agree. For it to be affected requires someone to take a reading of 'ranged attack' that is not the most appropriate in the given context.

-Hyp.

 

[ainbimagh]

But a specific rule overrides a general rule, and the specific rule is that Exceptional Deflection includes spells which require a ranged touch attack as ranged attacks.

The main clause of the feat's rule has not already excluded all spells 'by definition', because it has modified the definition of 'ranged attack' (for its own purposes) to include some spells. Namely, those which require a ranged touch attack.

Here is the sentence from the feat text:
Benefit: The character can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.

Do you agree that a character with Exceptional Deflection can deflect a spell that requires a ranged touch attack as if it were an arrow? Or do you feel that the parenthetical clause is invalid and thus can be ignored, since it contradicts the glossary definition of 'ranged attack'?

-Hyp.

No, the fact is that the parenthetical clause makes only ONE exception to the glossary term. That does not give you the right to ignore the glossary definition entirely, it just allows you to ignore the glossary definition in ONE instance. Ranged touch attacks.

Thanks, drive on through.

 

[Aaron L]

No, the fact is that the parenthetical clause makes only ONE exception to the glossary term. That does not give you the right to ignore the glossary definition entirely, it just allows you to ignore the glossary definition in ONE instance. Ranged touch attacks.

Thanks, drive on through.

I'm curious to know where he said any differently?

 

[ainbimagh]

I'm curious to know where he said any differently?

Well he's trying to say that all spells are considered ranged attacks because the feat makes an exclusion to affect spells with a touch attack. And I am trying to say, no it doesnt have any impact on the glossary terms definition, the feat just allows it to affect more than the standard definition.

 

[Sithobi1]

Well he's trying to say that all spells are considered ranged attacks because the feat makes an exclusion to affect spells with a touch attack. And I am trying to say, no it doesnt have any impact on the glossary terms definition, the feat just allows it to affect more than the standard definition.

No, all he's saying is that spells that have ranged touch attacks are considered ranged attacks for the purposes of this feat, much like Magic Missile is considered an attack for the purposes of Invisibility.

 

[ainbimagh]

Well thats not the vibe I was getting, since earlier he was trying to declare that it would be interperted to stop magic missle, since that is a 'ranged attack'

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well thats not the vibe I was getting, since earlier he was trying to declare that it would be interperted to stop magic missle, since that is a 'ranged attack'

I said that it was possible to define Magic Missile as a ranged attack, given that it satisfies the definition of 'Attack' in the Magic Overview chapter, and it has a range.

I also said that I did not consider this a valid definition for the purposes of the Exceptional Deflection feat, since the definition of Magic Missile as an attack via the Magic Overview chapter is specific to spell descriptions, and the Exceptional Deflection text is not a spell description.

So no, I don't believe that Exceptional Deflection deflects Magic Missile... but if Magic Missile were to be deemed a ranged attack, the feat would affect it.

-Hyp.

 

[molonel]

While you could probably mangle the semantics enough to label an attack spell as an attack for the purposes of this feat, I think it's pretty dang clear what the intent was. They didn't design the rules to be picked apart and analyzed like legal documents.

We don't have access to an author's intent. We only have access to the texts they write. Rules are sometimes clear, sometimes less clear, sometimes ambiguous and sometimes downright poorly written. What seems very clear to me is sometimes less clear to someone else, and I respect someone else's right to wrangle over meanings in a voluntarily entered, easily ignored thread on a RULES DISCUSSION FORUM.

If you don't like arguing about rules, then might I suggest you're in the wrong place?

I appreciate the contributions of several posters in this thread. I, for one, gained something from the discussion.

I agree with the reasoning, but it just strikes me as imaginatively odd.

Maximized Empowered Disintegrate? No problem. The arrows of a thousand expert archers fired from the rim of the canyon walls? Jet Li, eat your heart out! Polar Ray? Pfft! Acid Orb? Blow me!

A 1st level wizard with a Wand of Magic Missile?

Doh!