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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6193712" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't understand where you are getting these "norms of the game" from.</p><p></p><p>In AD&D the monk has daily abiliities (eg their self-healing ability) but there is no reason to think that this is magical, as opposed to autohypnosis.</p><p></p><p>In 3E the barbarian has a daily rage ability. Sword & Fist - the first 3E expansion - had a feat that conferred a daily ability (maybe a powerful charge?). I'm pretty sure one or more rogue talents in the 3E PHB confers a daily ability (defensive roll?).</p><p></p><p>In AD&D dragons had 3x/day breathing, and in 3E they are on a recharge timer, but there is nothing to suggest that breath weapons are remotely like spells (in 3E they are magical, because SU abilities; in AD&D this is left up to GM adjudication).</p><p></p><p>I've got not doubt that you <em>prefer</em> that rechargeable resources be equated with in-fiction spells and the like. But to say that this is a "norm of the game" is simply to project your own preferences onto a ruleset that manifestly does not conform to them.</p><p></p><p>In Moldvay Basic a thief can use any weapon, and can most definitely backstab with a two-handed sword. In AD&D a fighter/thief can fight with a two-handed sword, and my memory is that the sword can be used to backstab, but my memory is not perfect. OSRIC - which is the only AD&D rulebook I have ready-to-hand - has an odd treatment of this. The thief can backstab "with a melee weapon" whereas the assassin can backtab "with any of the melee weapons permissible to the thief class". In AD&D an assassin can use any weapon, and I would always have assumed can backstab with any of them.</p><p></p><p>Achilles doesn't seem to have much trouble dropping Trojans in droves - what is that, in mechanical terms, if not AoE? (In 4e terms, a close burst.) Likwise why can an archer not do ranged AoE attacks with volleys of arrows? (In 4e terms, an area burst.) What is the functional difference between Ice Storm - dropping many small cold stones on an area - and Volley that Blocks out the Sun - dropping many small sharp shafts on an area?</p><p></p><p>Things that 3E clerics and druids do as well as or better than fighters include melee combat and wrestling. I would think that these are part of the concept of a knight or soldier.</p><p></p><p>As for stabbing the sun to make it go dark, that sounds like a cool ability for a high level martial PC, much as Heracles was able to hold up the sky on his shoulders. (And also able to outwrestle many powerful beasts.) In other words, its not as if there is no precedent in myth or literature for non-wizards to do epically powerful things. And in D&D this is a question of level. So at about the same level that a magic-user can polymorph, a fighter should be able to wrestle a river (as Achilles fought Scamander).</p><p></p><p>In my experience, a fighter's ability to "go that every round" is heavily constrained by his/her hp total - a fighter with no hp left cannot do act, and outside of 4e a fighter does not generally have the capability to restore his/her own hp in a combat-relevant time frame.</p><p></p><p>Whether or not one want to use Bo9S, I don't see how it can be categorised as "broken". How are PCs built from Bo9S more broken than druids with druid cohorts, each with a Wolf or Bear companion, and Summon Nature's Ally on tap?</p><p></p><p></p><p>You may be missing (some of) the point - that people want to play a warrior PC (whether inspired by Conan, or Lancelot, or Achilles, or Aragorn, or any of the dozens of other literary or mythological warrior heroes) but want that PC to be more mechanically effective within the game than they find the 3E (or even PF) fighter to be.</p><p></p><p>In [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s case, he is pegging that mechanical effectiveness to AD&D levels, where fighters, above low levels, have average to good saves and some of the best ability to take down enemies in combat. Compared to 3E, where they tend to have the worst saves and have only a mediocre ability to take down enemies in combat (given that monster hit points - which fighters target - get better whereas their saves - which MUs target - get worse).</p><p></p><p>In [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION]'s case, she is nominating the Warblade as a class that occupies the same functional and archetyical niche as a fighter, but has more adequate mechancial effectiveness assuming that some other classes - like non-Persistent Metagamic clerics - are treated as a baseline for the system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6193712, member: 42582"] I don't understand where you are getting these "norms of the game" from. In AD&D the monk has daily abiliities (eg their self-healing ability) but there is no reason to think that this is magical, as opposed to autohypnosis. In 3E the barbarian has a daily rage ability. Sword & Fist - the first 3E expansion - had a feat that conferred a daily ability (maybe a powerful charge?). I'm pretty sure one or more rogue talents in the 3E PHB confers a daily ability (defensive roll?). In AD&D dragons had 3x/day breathing, and in 3E they are on a recharge timer, but there is nothing to suggest that breath weapons are remotely like spells (in 3E they are magical, because SU abilities; in AD&D this is left up to GM adjudication). I've got not doubt that you [I]prefer[/I] that rechargeable resources be equated with in-fiction spells and the like. But to say that this is a "norm of the game" is simply to project your own preferences onto a ruleset that manifestly does not conform to them. In Moldvay Basic a thief can use any weapon, and can most definitely backstab with a two-handed sword. In AD&D a fighter/thief can fight with a two-handed sword, and my memory is that the sword can be used to backstab, but my memory is not perfect. OSRIC - which is the only AD&D rulebook I have ready-to-hand - has an odd treatment of this. The thief can backstab "with a melee weapon" whereas the assassin can backtab "with any of the melee weapons permissible to the thief class". In AD&D an assassin can use any weapon, and I would always have assumed can backstab with any of them. Achilles doesn't seem to have much trouble dropping Trojans in droves - what is that, in mechanical terms, if not AoE? (In 4e terms, a close burst.) Likwise why can an archer not do ranged AoE attacks with volleys of arrows? (In 4e terms, an area burst.) What is the functional difference between Ice Storm - dropping many small cold stones on an area - and Volley that Blocks out the Sun - dropping many small sharp shafts on an area? Things that 3E clerics and druids do as well as or better than fighters include melee combat and wrestling. I would think that these are part of the concept of a knight or soldier. As for stabbing the sun to make it go dark, that sounds like a cool ability for a high level martial PC, much as Heracles was able to hold up the sky on his shoulders. (And also able to outwrestle many powerful beasts.) In other words, its not as if there is no precedent in myth or literature for non-wizards to do epically powerful things. And in D&D this is a question of level. So at about the same level that a magic-user can polymorph, a fighter should be able to wrestle a river (as Achilles fought Scamander). In my experience, a fighter's ability to "go that every round" is heavily constrained by his/her hp total - a fighter with no hp left cannot do act, and outside of 4e a fighter does not generally have the capability to restore his/her own hp in a combat-relevant time frame. Whether or not one want to use Bo9S, I don't see how it can be categorised as "broken". How are PCs built from Bo9S more broken than druids with druid cohorts, each with a Wolf or Bear companion, and Summon Nature's Ally on tap? You may be missing (some of) the point - that people want to play a warrior PC (whether inspired by Conan, or Lancelot, or Achilles, or Aragorn, or any of the dozens of other literary or mythological warrior heroes) but want that PC to be more mechanically effective within the game than they find the 3E (or even PF) fighter to be. In [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s case, he is pegging that mechanical effectiveness to AD&D levels, where fighters, above low levels, have average to good saves and some of the best ability to take down enemies in combat. Compared to 3E, where they tend to have the worst saves and have only a mediocre ability to take down enemies in combat (given that monster hit points - which fighters target - get better whereas their saves - which MUs target - get worse). In [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION]'s case, she is nominating the Warblade as a class that occupies the same functional and archetyical niche as a fighter, but has more adequate mechancial effectiveness assuming that some other classes - like non-Persistent Metagamic clerics - are treated as a baseline for the system. [/QUOTE]
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