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Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?
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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 6193824" data-attributes="member: 2303"><p>DnD is a hp game. There are some abilities that bypasses hp as a defense (save or die, some combat maneuvers, sneak attack to a degree) and these have always been problematic. The fighter is the class built most around the hp mechanic - both dealing and taking hp very well. Other classes have to "cheat" and use workarounds because they don't have the fighters very good base numbers. If we give fighters ways to cheat too, we have to reduce those base numbers, and all classes become more or less the same.</p><p></p><p>This was a big problem in 4E. Because there were so few effects to build powers from, and a constant influx of new powers, all classes ended up with all sorts of powers. Nothing was unique or special. All classes having all powers means the only real difference between classes are the base numbers - which fighters were still the best at. Hence the 4E fighter ended up horribly overpowered.</p><p></p><p>Now I am not saying the 3E, 3.5, or Pathfinder fighter is perfect. I agree fighters could well deserve a good Will save, for example. But giving fighters all the good stuff other classes have cheapens it. Part of the pride of being a fighter is to say "Me and My Sword Only" and be the equal of other heroes with supernatural abilities. The wizard knows many spells. The fighter knows only one spell, "kill with weapon". But he is the best at it. If he's not, that is a genuine problem, but in my 3E experience that happens only in games very low on magic items, where buff spells shine.</p><p></p><p>Now, if you make completely new classes that are not fighters and mix fighting and other abilities - like a gish or the Pathfinder magus, or even a "dirty fighter" with non-magical control abilities like what you outline in the quote - I have no problem with that. But that's not the DnD fighter. To a point, that IS the Pathfinder fighter - combat maneuvers are so upgraded in Pathfinder that they actually do some of the things the quote outlines.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 6193824, member: 2303"] DnD is a hp game. There are some abilities that bypasses hp as a defense (save or die, some combat maneuvers, sneak attack to a degree) and these have always been problematic. The fighter is the class built most around the hp mechanic - both dealing and taking hp very well. Other classes have to "cheat" and use workarounds because they don't have the fighters very good base numbers. If we give fighters ways to cheat too, we have to reduce those base numbers, and all classes become more or less the same. This was a big problem in 4E. Because there were so few effects to build powers from, and a constant influx of new powers, all classes ended up with all sorts of powers. Nothing was unique or special. All classes having all powers means the only real difference between classes are the base numbers - which fighters were still the best at. Hence the 4E fighter ended up horribly overpowered. Now I am not saying the 3E, 3.5, or Pathfinder fighter is perfect. I agree fighters could well deserve a good Will save, for example. But giving fighters all the good stuff other classes have cheapens it. Part of the pride of being a fighter is to say "Me and My Sword Only" and be the equal of other heroes with supernatural abilities. The wizard knows many spells. The fighter knows only one spell, "kill with weapon". But he is the best at it. If he's not, that is a genuine problem, but in my 3E experience that happens only in games very low on magic items, where buff spells shine. Now, if you make completely new classes that are not fighters and mix fighting and other abilities - like a gish or the Pathfinder magus, or even a "dirty fighter" with non-magical control abilities like what you outline in the quote - I have no problem with that. But that's not the DnD fighter. To a point, that IS the Pathfinder fighter - combat maneuvers are so upgraded in Pathfinder that they actually do some of the things the quote outlines. [/QUOTE]
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