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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 6194396" data-attributes="member: 2303">Startling to think this discussion s going in circles, repeating the same things, so I try and restrict my replies to instances when I feel I can say new things. Still, this was a pretty good post, so I'll try and reply, even if I do feel I am repeating myself here.Gary Gygax and the tabletop generation he comes from saw fighters as using the regular combat system, and the other classes as having other means of doing similar (but still different) things. This is like having the knight and the rook do different things in chess - gamey, yes, but this is how they saw things.  The result is known as Dungeons & Dragons. In a way the whole class system in Dungeons & Dragons is gamey - but it also mimics a large swath of fantasy fiction, so gamey and emulationist* merges here.As I tried to explain, "cheating" and "using the regular hp damage system" are two different solutions to the same problem. So the whole point of being a fighter is to not "cheat". But as I said earlier, I am not adverse to an alternate fighting class that "cheats" instead of does damage. But that is not a DnD fighter. If it is a Bo9S character is a matter of taste. It can be a 1E assassin, with it's assassination table, which was never adequately described but which could be read to be something like the RQ resistance table, and success means the target dies. You may also want to look at a rogue AT I made for pathfinder which does this kind of thing <a href="http://hastur.net/wiki/Daredevil_%28Apath%29" target="_blank">the Daredevil</a>. But note that a daredevil is significantly worse than a rogue at doing hp damage.Also as I noted earlier, the Pathfinder fighter really does have a much bigger bag of tricks. The changes to combat maneuvers in Pathfinder is not obvious just reading the rules, you have to try them, but they really add a LOT of versatility to combat feats, and thus to fighters, who are the kings of combat feats.Edit: Also note that the share spells animal companion ability has changed in pathfinder. As has the polymorph abilities. Read close, and the druid has been hit quite hard by the nerf bat - in a good way. The "best" druid no longer dumps Str and Dex, ups Con and Wis, and goes to town as a bear.* Consciously avoiding Forge terms here, as people confuse common English and Forge terms. So, gamey is not gamist, and emulationist is not simulationist, tough there are certain similarities. In fact I feel "gamey" is a brilliant term to describe boardgame-isms and tabletop-isms in ROPGs without nessecarily using the challenge or "step on up" of Forge gamism. Becasue what I meant with "gamism" before I read Forge is very close to what I feel "gamey" means here. This was one of the reasons I joined this thread.</blockquote>

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