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Does/Should D&D Have the Player's Game Experience as a goal?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9241132" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This doesn't seem right to me. I would have thought that it's possible to describe different likely consequences of different methods. For instance, one likely effect of telling players DCs is that it creates a sense of correlation between the challenges in the fiction, and the mathematics of difficulty. (I take this point from Luke Crane, who makes it in relation to Burning Wheel; the same method, and purpose, is carried over to Torchbearer.)</p><p></p><p>One likely effect of not telling players DCs is that they find situations in the game more opaque/shrouded. Earlier D&D rulebooks explicitly make this point in relation to listening and searching checks: the GM should roll the dice, and keep the parameters of the roll secret, because the players shouldn't know what is really going on in the situation <em>unless the GM's roll for them succeeds</em>. The Traveller rulebooks (1977) make a similar point (Book 1, pp 2-3):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Routinely in the course of <em>Traveller</em>, dice must be thrown to determine an effectively random or unpredictable course of action. These dice throws may be made by players for their characters, or by the referee for the effects of nature, non-players, or unseen forces. Rolls by the referee may be kept secret or partially concealed depending on their effects. In situations where the players would not actually know the results of the roll, or would not know the exact roll made, the referee would make the roll in secret.</p><p></p><p>Departing from the practice described has consequences that can be described. For instance, a type of irony in play becomes possible, as per this example from the Maelstrom Storytelling supplement, Dacartha Prime (p 92):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The character is the player's tool in the story, and the player contributes to the story using that tool. The trick is to make interesting choices that add flavour and interest to the game while remaining true to the role. Just doing what makes sense for the character is only half of it. Find new ways to approach dilemmas, and make choices that other players can "play off of". Information that the player has, but that their character does not have, should never be used to benefit the character - however, that information can be used to add flavour and colour to the story.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Example: Pendleton has a lot of money, all safely kept in a safe deposit box. His friend Lilith winds up with the key by accident, but doesn't know where it came from. Pendleton looks frantically for the key, describing it to his friend as he searches. "A little silver key? Like this one?" Lilith asks, showing him the key. "Yes. A silver key. Very much like that one," he answers, continuing to search</p><p></p><p>I don't think the skill to do this sort of thing is beyond the D&D designers, and as I've indicated in this post there are many examples in published RPGs over the past 40+ years from which they might draw inspiration.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9241132, member: 42582"] This doesn't seem right to me. I would have thought that it's possible to describe different likely consequences of different methods. For instance, one likely effect of telling players DCs is that it creates a sense of correlation between the challenges in the fiction, and the mathematics of difficulty. (I take this point from Luke Crane, who makes it in relation to Burning Wheel; the same method, and purpose, is carried over to Torchbearer.) One likely effect of not telling players DCs is that they find situations in the game more opaque/shrouded. Earlier D&D rulebooks explicitly make this point in relation to listening and searching checks: the GM should roll the dice, and keep the parameters of the roll secret, because the players shouldn't know what is really going on in the situation [I]unless the GM's roll for them succeeds[/I]. The Traveller rulebooks (1977) make a similar point (Book 1, pp 2-3): [indent]Routinely in the course of [I]Traveller[/I], dice must be thrown to determine an effectively random or unpredictable course of action. These dice throws may be made by players for their characters, or by the referee for the effects of nature, non-players, or unseen forces. Rolls by the referee may be kept secret or partially concealed depending on their effects. In situations where the players would not actually know the results of the roll, or would not know the exact roll made, the referee would make the roll in secret.[/indent] Departing from the practice described has consequences that can be described. For instance, a type of irony in play becomes possible, as per this example from the Maelstrom Storytelling supplement, Dacartha Prime (p 92): [indent]The character is the player's tool in the story, and the player contributes to the story using that tool. The trick is to make interesting choices that add flavour and interest to the game while remaining true to the role. Just doing what makes sense for the character is only half of it. Find new ways to approach dilemmas, and make choices that other players can "play off of". Information that the player has, but that their character does not have, should never be used to benefit the character - however, that information can be used to add flavour and colour to the story. Example: Pendleton has a lot of money, all safely kept in a safe deposit box. His friend Lilith winds up with the key by accident, but doesn't know where it came from. Pendleton looks frantically for the key, describing it to his friend as he searches. "A little silver key? Like this one?" Lilith asks, showing him the key. "Yes. A silver key. Very much like that one," he answers, continuing to search[/indent] I don't think the skill to do this sort of thing is beyond the D&D designers, and as I've indicated in this post there are many examples in published RPGs over the past 40+ years from which they might draw inspiration. [/QUOTE]
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