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Does the 3rd Tier of Play at Level 11 Make Sense?
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8943822" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>I often talk about how many 5e classes have a "back 10" problem; basically, level 11 to 20 is lackluster in terms of features per level.</p><p></p><p>This isn't true of spellcasters. While every level 6-8 spell isn't insane, there are lots of spells in those levels that eradicate entire plot lines.</p><p></p><p>The pre-6 teleportation spells are all "to a specific DM determined destination" or short range. Level 7 teleport is anywhere. You get planar travel that is again not very limited. Contingency. Disintegrate, which vetos most resurrection. Heal. Irreistable Dance (no save and suck). Mass Suggestion. Programmed Illusion. True Seeing. Wind Walk. Word of Recall. Magic Jar. Globe of Invulnerability. Find the Path. L7 and 8 spells continue this pattern.</p><p></p><p>They aren't "you do more damage", they are about vetoing and imposing hard rules that the DM has to work around, and bypasses hard problems the DM sets.</p><p></p><p>At T2, there are a limited number of hard T1 problems that spells bypass. At T3, a new set of hard problems is made trivial by spells.</p><p></p><p>Some Martial PCs do get somewhat of a damage bump at 11, except (barbarians, monks, rangers) -- all of whom have a back 10 problem.</p><p></p><p>Fighters and Paladins get a decent offensive bump at 11. 12-20 their oomph-per-level isn't great, which leads to them being tempted to multiclass. (Fighters have 7 levels to get AS2 and 9 to get EA3; in comparison it was 2 for AS1 and 5 for EA1, 6 for EA2; the oomph-per-level has dropped off a bunch). Their back-10 isn't as bad as the other 3, but it ain't great.</p><p></p><p>Artificers are a hybrid whose class features get really fun in the back-10.</p><p></p><p>Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Bards all get crazy 6th+ level spells.</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>Building a campaign, in T1 I expect to feed PCs local problems. They have a goal "pre-loaded" by campaign setup, and a set of local ways to deal with it.</p><p></p><p>T2 is around where I'd put the first major forks. A macro-scale decision where there are at least 2 obvious paths to travel, geographically or temporally separated, where the PCs pick one problem to face and solve and let the other one develop as it may. You might be able to fit 2 forks; 3-6 sub plots where the PCs deal with ~3 of them successfully.</p><p></p><p>T3 geography stops mattering. Anything anywhere in the world or planes becomes in play. Information (where to go) is the only real barrier, and they even get tools to get better information. </p><p></p><p>Problems introduced as too big to deal with in T1 can be wrapped up before lunch in T3. So in T2, I should be introducing problems <em>bigger</em> than the T1 "BBEG" plot that make the T1 concerns seem to be schoolyard pranks.</p><p></p><p>T4 is when spells like true resurrection, wish, true polymorph come online. These are spells where once per long rest a player can create new life or restructure a small chunk of the campaign world. Ancient king with prophesy to return? That is a days work. Gonzo is on the menu.</p><p></p><p>A big insurmountable problem from 2 tiers ago should be a day's adventure in T3/T4. So as a DM, my job is to set up <em>new</em> problems for later tiers <em>in every tier</em>. Some problems can grow (and should!), but the very nature of the problem has to transform.</p><p></p><p>In T4, a foe worth fighting has to be one that literally using a wish isn't sufficient to deal with.</p><p></p><p>It is really easy to punt and just treat T3 and T4 as "bigger numbers". And if you do, you'll look at disintegrate and meteor swarm and think "ok, those numbers aren't that much bigger". But the damage spells aren't what tiers come from.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8943822, member: 72555"] I often talk about how many 5e classes have a "back 10" problem; basically, level 11 to 20 is lackluster in terms of features per level. This isn't true of spellcasters. While every level 6-8 spell isn't insane, there are lots of spells in those levels that eradicate entire plot lines. The pre-6 teleportation spells are all "to a specific DM determined destination" or short range. Level 7 teleport is anywhere. You get planar travel that is again not very limited. Contingency. Disintegrate, which vetos most resurrection. Heal. Irreistable Dance (no save and suck). Mass Suggestion. Programmed Illusion. True Seeing. Wind Walk. Word of Recall. Magic Jar. Globe of Invulnerability. Find the Path. L7 and 8 spells continue this pattern. They aren't "you do more damage", they are about vetoing and imposing hard rules that the DM has to work around, and bypasses hard problems the DM sets. At T2, there are a limited number of hard T1 problems that spells bypass. At T3, a new set of hard problems is made trivial by spells. Some Martial PCs do get somewhat of a damage bump at 11, except (barbarians, monks, rangers) -- all of whom have a back 10 problem. Fighters and Paladins get a decent offensive bump at 11. 12-20 their oomph-per-level isn't great, which leads to them being tempted to multiclass. (Fighters have 7 levels to get AS2 and 9 to get EA3; in comparison it was 2 for AS1 and 5 for EA1, 6 for EA2; the oomph-per-level has dropped off a bunch). Their back-10 isn't as bad as the other 3, but it ain't great. Artificers are a hybrid whose class features get really fun in the back-10. Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Bards all get crazy 6th+ level spells. ... Building a campaign, in T1 I expect to feed PCs local problems. They have a goal "pre-loaded" by campaign setup, and a set of local ways to deal with it. T2 is around where I'd put the first major forks. A macro-scale decision where there are at least 2 obvious paths to travel, geographically or temporally separated, where the PCs pick one problem to face and solve and let the other one develop as it may. You might be able to fit 2 forks; 3-6 sub plots where the PCs deal with ~3 of them successfully. T3 geography stops mattering. Anything anywhere in the world or planes becomes in play. Information (where to go) is the only real barrier, and they even get tools to get better information. Problems introduced as too big to deal with in T1 can be wrapped up before lunch in T3. So in T2, I should be introducing problems [I]bigger[/I] than the T1 "BBEG" plot that make the T1 concerns seem to be schoolyard pranks. T4 is when spells like true resurrection, wish, true polymorph come online. These are spells where once per long rest a player can create new life or restructure a small chunk of the campaign world. Ancient king with prophesy to return? That is a days work. Gonzo is on the menu. A big insurmountable problem from 2 tiers ago should be a day's adventure in T3/T4. So as a DM, my job is to set up [I]new[/I] problems for later tiers [I]in every tier[/I]. Some problems can grow (and should!), but the very nature of the problem has to transform. In T4, a foe worth fighting has to be one that literally using a wish isn't sufficient to deal with. It is really easy to punt and just treat T3 and T4 as "bigger numbers". And if you do, you'll look at disintegrate and meteor swarm and think "ok, those numbers aren't that much bigger". But the damage spells aren't what tiers come from. [/QUOTE]
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