D&D 5E Does the 3rd Tier of Play at Level 11 Make Sense?

[squibbles]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

In the third tier (levels 11-16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. At 11th level, many spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells, some of which create effects previously impossible for player characters to achieve. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or do more impressive things with those attacks. These mighty adventurers often confront threats to whole regions and continents.

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

 

[Minigiant]

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?

Early D&D did not have an evocative image of what post level 10 play is and the sources of inspiration for Early D&D had few instances of humaniods higher that level 10 outside of a few protagonist heroes and antagonist villains.

Because of this,elements of D&D were created to exist but not really created to be used. And the process continued as the community did not agree on what Tier 3 actually is or would be played.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

Mass Suggestion
Heal
Magic Jar

IMO, while it's fair to argue that some 6th level spells aren't much more powerful than their lower level counterparts, it's clear that others are in a league of their own. I think tier 3 makes sense as such.

 

[dave2008]

Personally I would like the power spike between tiers to be removed completely and for the "tiers" to be RP / adventure aid only

 

[jgsugden]

Your question seems to be: Do mechanics of the game directly support the idea that when PCs hit 11th level they suddenly become significantly more powerful and rise above other adventurers? No. It isn't a switch that flips when they hit 11th level. There is a bit of a power leap with class abilities and 6th level spells, but that progression from hero to super hero is just starting at 11th level. They'll be feeling that power grow between levels 11 and 16.

If you use the XP and encounter building guidance from the DMG, there is a shift at level 11 - PCs start to advance faster. If you follow that advice you'd see that you need 1 adventuring day to advance at levels 1 and 2. Level 3 to 4 takes about 2 sessions. Levels 4 to 10 all require more than 2 each - 2 or 3 adventuring days per level. From 11 on that drops back down to much less than 2 adventuring days per session, meaning that PCs will advance every 1 or 2 full adventuring days.

Why does this matter? Because when they hit level 11 they accelerate in their advancement. They spend a total of about 6 adventuring days to get to the heroic phase at 5th level, then about 13 or 14 adventuring days to advance 6 more levels to get to 11th level's super hero phase, then only 9 to 10 (or about 2/3 the number for the prior 6 levels) days to advance 6 more levels to get to 17th, and then spend about 3.5 adventuring days to reach 20th level. You can see this by determining the amount of experience required to advance a level and dividing it by the recommended experience per adventuring day.

So how does this play out: Players rocket to level 3, then slow down advancement until 11, and then they start to advance faster. Level 11 feels a bit different but then 12, 13, 14 and 15 come quicker and bring more high level powers and magics.

Regardless (and we probably do need to disregard most of the above as so many DMs use milestone advancement and do not realize the game anticipates accelerated advancement at these levels), the mechanics do not need to support it directly if you, as a DM, believe the feel should be there and want the players to experience a massive change at level 11. You can alter your game design to put things that are more vulnerable to thei capabilities into play at level 11. That will exagerrate the differnce for the players and give them that definite feel of 'getting over the hump' and being suddenly more powerful. You can also just do it with NPC reactions to the heroes.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I believe the 6th level spells is when you start to get the really reliable long range movement stuff, like Wind Walk to travel hundreds of miles a day, Transport Via Plants to teleport around the globe, and Word of Recall to instantly teleport back to safety. You do get Teleportation Circle at 5th, but it's more unreliable due to needing a year to make it permanent, and finding permanent ones can be difficult.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

Speaking for myself, I would say so. Not at the low end of spells for those levels, but rather comparing the high end thereof.

Fireball is a big jump compared to 2nd level AoE damage spells.
Nondetection... isn't.

Heal is a big jump compared to healing spells of 5th level and below.
True Seeing, not as much.

Wish is a big jump over 8th level spells, because it can be used to to cast any 8th level or lower spell as an action without components. Plus it can do a whole lot more.
Power Word Kill isn't really the same.

It's not that every spell at a new tier is a big shift, but some certainly are.

 

[squibbles]

Mass Suggestion
Heal
Magic Jar

IMO, while it's fair to argue that some 6th level spells aren't much more powerful than their lower level counterparts, it's clear that others are in a league of their own. I think tier 3 makes sense as such.

There are definitely some standout 6th level spells; I'm not sure why I neglected to mention heal in the OP, its the best apples to apples example of a 6th level spell being obviously non-linearly stronger than prior healing features.

But doesn't every spell level have some standouts like that? Are the standout spells at 6th level substantially more standout than the standout spells at 5th level (wall of force, animate objects) or 7th level (gamebreaking simulacrum, forcecage, game reorienting teleport, plane shift) in the way that 3rd level spells are, usually, head and shoulders better than 2nd level ones?

Your question seems to be: Do mechanics of the game directly support the idea that when PCs hit 11th level they suddenly become significantly more powerful and rise above other adventurers? No. It isn't a switch that flips when they hit 11th level. There is a bit of a power leap with class abilities and 6th level spells, but that progression from hero to super hero is just starting at 11th level. They'll be feeling that power grow between levels 11 and 16. [...]

Fair enough, that's a straightforward answer to the questions I asked.

But just to be clear, are you rejecting the premise that PCs [are meant to] become substantially more powerful at the tiers of play transition levels, or are you accepting that premise and agreeing that 11th level, unlike 5th and 17th, is not a significant increase in PC's power?

Also, thanks for explaining the XP progression difference between tiers. I was aware, but it's useful info to note regardless.

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

This is by no means an original assertion by me. People were commenting on it back in 2015.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There are definitely some standout 6th level spells; I'm not sure why I neglected to mention heal in the OP, its the best apples to apples example of a 6th level spell being obviously non-linearly stronger than prior healing features.

But doesn't every spell level have some standouts like that? Are the standout spells at 6th level substantially more standout than the standout spells at 5th level (wall of force, animate objects) or 7th level (gamebreaking simulacrum, forcecage, game reorienting teleport, plane shift) in the way that 3rd level spells are, usually, head and shoulders better than 2nd level ones?

I mean, you can make that same argument for 2nd level spells. Is Fireball really better than Invisibility? The former might let you end a fight, but the latter can keep that fight from occurring altogether.

That said, yes, I do believe the best spells at levels 3/6/9 spike more sharply than what you see at other levels.

Wall of Force is a great spell, but ultimately it doesn't really enable you to do anything that Wall of Stone didn't. It blocks more things and it can't be damaged, but ultimately it's a wall. Wall of Stone lets you divide a battlefield and that's fundamentally the same thing that Wall of Force does (just better).

Whereas Heal is different from the healing spells that precede it. It's arguably the first healing spell that can outpace damage output, making it the first true in-combat healing spell in the game. It's not just a bigger Cure Wounds, it's fundamentally different in its application.

Wish is similarly fundamentally game changing. It grants effective access to every spell in the game below 9th level. As long as you don't get one-shot, a party can afford to be significantly more reckless with a Wish in their back pocket, than without.

 

[Clint_L]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

I agree with your point that 6th level spells don't really feel like a huge step up in the way that 3rd level spells do, but then the non-spell casting classes don't get nearly as a big a bump going to 11th level as compared to hitting 5th, so to me it feels like a wash, which seems to be the design intent.

 

[ECMO3]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

I always viewed the tiers as the jump in PB. So I would say tier 3 begins at 9th level and 5th level spells are a huge increase (wall of force, Greater Restoration, Synaptic Static)

 

[squibbles]

I mean, you can make that same argument for 2nd level spells. Is Fireball really better than Invisibility? The former might let you end a fight, but the latter can keep that fight from occurring altogether.

You can, but I think its somewhat less persuasive. Anyway, you've made a solid case that the tiers are working as intended.

Wall of Force is a great spell, but ultimately it doesn't really enable you to do anything that Wall of Stone didn't. It blocks more things and it can't be damaged, but ultimately it's a wall. Wall of Stone lets you divide a battlefield and that's fundamentally the same thing that Wall of Force does (just better).

Wait... huh?

Wall of Stone is a 5th level spell too.

I always viewed the tiers as the jump in PB. So I would say tier 3 begins at 9th level and 5th level spells are a huge increase (wall of force, Greater Restoration, Synaptic Static)

That may be true to your experience in practice, but the design definitely intends--via things like cantrip scaling, font of magic, pact slots, and, as @jgsugden noted, the XP progression--for 11th level to be the cut point. Do you think they should change those cut points to be at 9th level in One D&D? There was a thread in the other forum arguing basically that (from which this thread is a somewhat belated spinoff).

 

[Minigiant]

I always viewed the tiers as the jump in PB. So I would say tier 3 begins at 9th level and 5th level spells are a huge increase (wall of force, Greater Restoration, Synaptic Static)

Well like I said earlier, the designers of 5e and most of the community did not have a clear idea what post-level 10 play is if you skip 4e.

So by just copying spells from old editions and converting them, the design would not match the goals.

We can only hope people speak up in the next playtest of next editions, half editions, clones, and spinoffs

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wait... huh?

Wall of Stone is a 5th level spell too.

My bad, I thought Wall of Stone was 4th level. Just substitute Wall of Water/Sand/Fire. The point still stands, they exist to divide the battlefield. Wall of Force is simply generally better at achieving that end. It doesn't unlock some fundamentally new capacity, unlike Fireball/Heal/Wish.

 

[Charlaquin]

My bad, I thought Wall of Stone was 4th level. Just substitute Wall of Water/Sand/Fire. The point still stands, they exist to divide the battlefield. Wall of Force is simply generally better at achieving that end. It doesn't unlock some fundamentally new capacity, unlike Fireball/Heal/Wish.

Notably, Wall of Stone does do something other wall spells don’t: it can be made permanent, so it’s theoretically useful for building structures as well as dividing the battlefield. That’s probably why it’s 5th level.

 

[tetrasodium]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

In the third tier (levels 11-16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. At 11th level, many spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells, some of which create effects previously impossible for player characters to achieve. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or do more impressive things with those attacks. These mighty adventurers often confront threats to whole regions and continents.

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

The single 6th level slot added at level 11 isn't that big of a deal. IMHO the but you quoted from the PHB & some of the abilities targeting that goal is off the mark. I say that because they are still trying to invoke or match past editions where instead of 4/3/3/3/2/1 spell slots & 16 prepared spells an 11th level caster might have 4/4/4/3/2/1 spell slots each preparing a spell that is now useful due to caster level or worth preparing due to spell prep options gained in other spell levels. Don't get me wrong though... there are definitely some stand out 6th level spells that can shine... if there is a situation where they shine... and they are known/scribed... and they are prepared when that situation comes up... and that slot wasn't used previously but that's a moment of gameplay behind a tenuously long list of a lot of ifs & ands.

With that said it's a power level that does not make sense narratively or provide for an interesting story if actually honored. That narrative role is the realm of what are generally interchangeable one dimensional isekai MC's sporting storybreaker powers. Once again old editions had a thing that somewhat mitigated that by having monsters that required those jacked up power levels to handle while in 5e it's simply a point where the PCs blast past bounded accuracy so they wind up standing shoulder to shoulder with Saitama without the benefit of support for a genre deconstruction plot that makes for interesting story.

 

[Stalker0]

5th level is by far the biggest jump in capability in the game, for many reasons:

1) +1 to almost everything (ie proficiency bonus). Many characters never get another bump here

2) 2nd attack. The martial DPs literally doubles.

3) 3rd level spells. Both the power and versatility.

4) durability. The HP at 5th level is getting to the point where even at 0 hp monsters can’t enough damage in a single swing to kill you. That is a huge boost in durability.


No other jump in the game is really the same.

I would argue 9th level is the next closest. 5th level spells to me are more transformative than 6th. You get your teleports starting, your high level divinations, wall spells that can just nullify entire sections of the battlefield. Further, it’s the frequency. There are still several rituals at this level, and casters can cast 2 5ths…but only 1 6th until very very high level. So that makes a difference.

Case in point, the gnome wizard in my game during downtime hung out next to his Paladin buddy and ritually cast contact other plane over 50 times in a week (with only in 1 in 400 chance to go insane). That’s just not something you can do with 6th level spells

 

[Bacon Bits]

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal.

Maybe not, but they're designed to be. They always have been, too.

Old D&D capped out at 6th level spells. 6th level spells are the first spells you get beyond name level. They used to be so special that you got 5th level spells at level 9, and then you got 6th level spells at level 12. B/X also capped at 6th level spells, and that went to 14. It was in many ways supposed to be the endgame spell level. Spells for levels 7-9 are stuff that happened much later. In nearly every AD&D campaign I played in, 7th level spells and higher were the exclusive domain of NPCs. And, realistically, that's how the game was designed. The XP tables got too fat at high level to realistically keep adventuring.

Even in 5e, 6th level spells are designed to be endgame stuff. It's the first spell level Warlocks get that isn't short rest recovery. It's the first level of It's the first spell level that doesn't really increase in daily use. Spell levels through 4 and 5 quickly ramp up to 2 or 3 per day. You get your first 6th level slot at 11, and your second comes at level 19. 6th level is also where nearly all spell level recovery and spell storage items end. Wizard's Arcane Recovery and Circle of the Land Druid's Natural Recovery cap at 5th level. It's the first spell level that Sorcerers can't create with spell points. Ring of Spell Storing is up to 5 levels. The game goes out of its way to prevent any one character from getting a second 6th level spell for a very long time.

The fact that the spells themselves at 6th level are almost universally lackluster, especially compared to how bonkers insane so many of the 7th level spells are, is kind of irrelevant to the design of the rest of the game. Everything in the game except the actual spell descriptions themselves treats 6th level as the start of something different.

The truth is just that spell descriptions are undercooked in 5e. It's pretty clear they didn't spend very much time on much of anything after level 11, and essentially nothing after level 13. The design of the game is set up for 6th level spells to be singularly amazing. They just didn't actually do that. They moved all those singular effects to 7th level, which is why level 13 is when the game stops being much fun.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Notably, Wall of Stone does do something other wall spells don’t: it can be made permanent, so it’s theoretically useful for building structures as well as dividing the battlefield. That’s probably why it’s 5th level.

True, but there are Tier 1 & 2 spells that are useful for building structures (Mold Earth, Fabricate, Stone Shape) so it doesn't actually bring anything fundamentally new to those tiers in that sense. Though, certainly, having a single spell to cover both walls and building is undeniably beneficial.