D&D 5E Does the 3rd Tier of Play at Level 11 Make Sense?

[squibbles]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

In the third tier (levels 11-16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. At 11th level, many spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells, some of which create effects previously impossible for player characters to achieve. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or do more impressive things with those attacks. These mighty adventurers often confront threats to whole regions and continents.

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

 

[Minigiant]

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?

Early D&D did not have an evocative image of what post level 10 play is and the sources of inspiration for Early D&D had few instances of humaniods higher that level 10 outside of a few protagonist heroes and antagonist villains.

Because of this,elements of D&D were created to exist but not really created to be used. And the process continued as the community did not agree on what Tier 3 actually is or would be played.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The separation of 5e PC's into tiers of play is one of the many things I find elegant about the 5e system. The designers observed that access to certain spell levels--3rd, 6th, 9th--dramatically expand the power and capabilities of PCs, so they gave PCs without full spell progression power spikes at the character levels--5th, 11th, 17th--that those spell levels are gained.

For the second tier it works great; fly, fireball, spirit guardians, and conjure animals are huge, and they pair excellently with all the fight-y classes getting extra attack. For the fourth tier it works somewhat less well--barbarians' extra brutal critical die and 6th use/rest of rage doesn't compare favorably with, say, the wish spell--but 17th level is still the obvious place for the last tier to start.

The third tier at 11th level is weird, though. The PHB states that:

Well, most fight-y types do get a solid power spike at 11th level that lets them attack more or harder (with some ranger and monk subclasses being a bit dubious).

...but 6th level spells aren't that big a deal. Blasts like chain lightning, circle of death, and disintegrate aren't substantially ahead of their 5th level counterparts in the way that fireball and meteor swarm are above their 2nd and 8th level ones. And the unique capabilities gains--contingency, heroes feast, true seeing--aren't as drastic as fly and conjure animals or wish and true polymorph. And some of the strong 5th level spells, like wall of force and animate objects, are probably better than most of the spells at 6th level. But, weirdly, several class features, such as the sorcerer's font of magic or the warlock's pact slots, cut off at 5th level spells, suggesting that 6th level spells are supposed to be a major step up.

So, what do you think? Is the power spike at the third tier of play a bit off? If it is a bit off, does that matter and, also, why is it designed like this? Finally, if it is off and that does matter, how do you think it could be improved in the upcoming edition?


(fwiw, my bad if this is the wrong forum for this question. The One D&D & OGL forum feels as though it is somewhat less suited for discussing mechanics of late, and this is half a question about whether the 5e tiers work as intended.)

Mass Suggestion
Heal
Magic Jar

IMO, while it's fair to argue that some 6th level spells aren't much more powerful than their lower level counterparts, it's clear that others are in a league of their own. I think tier 3 makes sense as such.

 

[dave2008]

Personally I would like the power spike between tiers to be removed completely and for the "tiers" to be RP / adventure aid only

 

[jgsugden]

Your question seems to be: Do mechanics of the game directly support the idea that when PCs hit 11th level they suddenly become significantly more powerful and rise above other adventurers? No. It isn't a switch that flips when they hit 11th level. There is a bit of a power leap with class abilities and 6th level spells, but that progression from hero to super hero is just starting at 11th level. They'll be feeling that power grow between levels 11 and 16.

If you use the XP and encounter building guidance from the DMG, there is a shift at level 11 - PCs start to advance faster. If you follow that advice you'd see that you need 1 adventuring day to advance at levels 1 and 2. Level 3 to 4 takes about 2 sessions. Levels 4 to 10 all require more than 2 each - 2 or 3 adventuring days per level. From 11 on that drops back down to much less than 2 adventuring days per session, meaning that PCs will advance every 1 or 2 full adventuring days.

Why does this matter? Because when they hit level 11 they accelerate in their advancement. They spend a total of about 6 adventuring days to get to the heroic phase at 5th level, then about 13 or 14 adventuring days to advance 6 more levels to get to 11th level's super hero phase, then only 9 to 10 (or about 2/3 the number for the prior 6 levels) days to advance 6 more levels to get to 17th, and then spend about 3.5 adventuring days to reach 20th level. You can see this by determining the amount of experience required to advance a level and dividing it by the recommended experience per adventuring day.

So how does this play out: Players rocket to level 3, then slow down advancement until 11, and then they start to advance faster. Level 11 feels a bit different but then 12, 13, 14 and 15 come quicker and bring more high level powers and magics.

Regardless (and we probably do need to disregard most of the above as so many DMs use milestone advancement and do not realize the game anticipates accelerated advancement at these levels), the mechanics do not need to support it directly if you, as a DM, believe the feel should be there and want the players to experience a massive change at level 11. You can alter your game design to put things that are more vulnerable to thei capabilities into play at level 11. That will exagerrate the differnce for the players and give them that definite feel of 'getting over the hump' and being suddenly more powerful. You can also just do it with NPC reactions to the heroes.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I believe the 6th level spells is when you start to get the really reliable long range movement stuff, like Wind Walk to travel hundreds of miles a day, Transport Via Plants to teleport around the globe, and Word of Recall to instantly teleport back to safety. You do get Teleportation Circle at 5th, but it's more unreliable due to needing a year to make it permanent, and finding permanent ones can be difficult.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

Speaking for myself, I would say so. Not at the low end of spells for those levels, but rather comparing the high end thereof.

Fireball is a big jump compared to 2nd level AoE damage spells.
Nondetection... isn't.

Heal is a big jump compared to healing spells of 5th level and below.
True Seeing, not as much.

Wish is a big jump over 8th level spells, because it can be used to to cast any 8th level or lower spell as an action without components. Plus it can do a whole lot more.
Power Word Kill isn't really the same.

It's not that every spell at a new tier is a big shift, but some certainly are.

 

[squibbles]

Mass Suggestion
Heal
Magic Jar

IMO, while it's fair to argue that some 6th level spells aren't much more powerful than their lower level counterparts, it's clear that others are in a league of their own. I think tier 3 makes sense as such.

There are definitely some standout 6th level spells; I'm not sure why I neglected to mention heal in the OP, its the best apples to apples example of a 6th level spell being obviously non-linearly stronger than prior healing features.

But doesn't every spell level have some standouts like that? Are the standout spells at 6th level substantially more standout than the standout spells at 5th level (wall of force, animate objects) or 7th level (gamebreaking simulacrum, forcecage, game reorienting teleport, plane shift) in the way that 3rd level spells are, usually, head and shoulders better than 2nd level ones?

Your question seems to be: Do mechanics of the game directly support the idea that when PCs hit 11th level they suddenly become significantly more powerful and rise above other adventurers? No. It isn't a switch that flips when they hit 11th level. There is a bit of a power leap with class abilities and 6th level spells, but that progression from hero to super hero is just starting at 11th level. They'll be feeling that power grow between levels 11 and 16. [...]

Fair enough, that's a straightforward answer to the questions I asked.

But just to be clear, are you rejecting the premise that PCs [are meant to] become substantially more powerful at the tiers of play transition levels, or are you accepting that premise and agreeing that 11th level, unlike 5th and 17th, is not a significant increase in PC's power?

Also, thanks for explaining the XP progression difference between tiers. I was aware, but it's useful info to note regardless.

Wait...do people agree with the OP's assertion that spell levels 3, 6, and 9 are a bigger jump, by design, than the other levels?

This is by no means an original assertion by me. People were commenting on it back in 2015.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There are definitely some standout 6th level spells; I'm not sure why I neglected to mention heal in the OP, its the best apples to apples example of a 6th level spell being obviously non-linearly stronger than prior healing features.

But doesn't every spell level have some standouts like that? Are the standout spells at 6th level substantially more standout than the standout spells at 5th level (wall of force, animate objects) or 7th level (gamebreaking simulacrum, forcecage, game reorienting teleport, plane shift) in the way that 3rd level spells are, usually, head and shoulders better than 2nd level ones?

I mean, you can make that same argument for 2nd level spells. Is Fireball really better than Invisibility? The former might let you end a fight, but the latter can keep that fight from occurring altogether.

That said, yes, I do believe the best spells at levels 3/6/9 spike more sharply than what you see at other levels.

Wall of Force is a great spell, but ultimately it doesn't really enable you to do anything that Wall of Stone didn't. It blocks more things and it can't be damaged, but ultimately it's a wall. Wall of Stone lets you divide a battlefield and that's fundamentally the same thing that Wall of Force does (just better).

Whereas Heal is different from the healing spells that precede it. It's arguably the first healing spell that can outpace damage output, making it the first true in-combat healing spell in the game. It's not just a bigger Cure Wounds, it's fundamentally different in its application.

Wish is similarly fundamentally game changing. It grants effective access to every spell in the game below 9th level. As long as you don't get one-shot, a party can afford to be significantly more reckless with a Wish in their back pocket, than without.