D&D 5E The 2024 Ranger is Actually Pretty Good (with numbers)

[James Gasik]

What is this, Schrodinger's Goblins?

 

[Horwath]

What is this, Schrodinger's Goblins?

until you get hit by a sneak attack, goblins both exist and do not exist at every location of the caves.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

sure, but it does not matter.

some one could say that you need physical interaction with the illusion to see that is fake.
some would say that anyone needs to have it.

but by that time spell takes effect it's immune to being counterspelled.

Is it? Some imagine that the spell is countered on its way...

But since creativity gets around that issue too, no problem with the first time you cast counterspell. But if you want it to last more than one single turn, be more creative.
Nothing says that you need to be the one to do the physical interaction. If someone else throws something through it, it is revealed to be an illusion.

 

[Horwath]

Is it? Some imagine that the spell is countered on its way...

I would say that it is only countered while casting, as you need to see the caster not the spell.
you target the caster.

But since creativity gets around that issue too, no problem with the first time you cast counterspell. But if you want it to last more than one single turn, be more creative.

yes, you could pull that trick only once, maybe.

Nothing says that you need to be the one to do the physical interaction. If someone else throws something through it, it is revealed to be an illusion.

guess it's rock with little window shutters

 

[Chaosmancer]

The claim was made that post-2024 wisdom build rangers would be the ONLY rangers. That's what I was responding to. It will mean trawling through the thread, but I will try and find it for you later.

You don't need to. It might be someone who blocked me, or it might have been a point I dismissed out-of-hand. Because, again, I'll agree with you. Saying Wisdom-only rangers are the only viable ones is false on its face. The only person I've seen make anything like that point is Horwath, who is solely focused on the "need" for Concentration protection, which "needs" warcaster, which "must" mean wisdom first because Warcaster can't boost dex. Which is a silly point in my opinion.

Pretty much all white room DPS calculations fail to take into account that it may not be possible for some or all of the combat to take place within melee range, or even within spell range. And hence we get the "I have Dex 14 and a longbow, so that's range covered" attitude. When really it would make more sense for any DPS character to focus on range.

And this lack of white room stuff means it's hard to say who comes top in the ranged DPS tables (I'm pretty sure it's not rogue though!) I suspect a range built fighter just edges out a ranger, but as pointed out earlier, (Dex) rangers are top of the switch hitter table.

This all comes down to specifics though. I know I often have monsters start pretty close, because it is not only boring for people to spend a full round or two closing, but because if the monsters just spend a turn dashing close, they tend to get shredded by ranged attacks and spells.

And, maybe DPS should be ranged in your games and in your tactical scenarios, but we also know that 1) Melee does far more damage when in range 2) Not all classes have effective ranged options beyond 14 dex and a bow

And, from experience with a half-elf paladin... it can be enough, for a melee focused character in those situations where they have no other options.

 

[James Gasik]

nah, now with that BS we will see tons of Shillelagh+druid range cantrip, S&B rangers with 8 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 17+ WIS and pumping WIS only, as that is only that has math sense. especially for Gloomstalker, beastmaster and Fey wanderer.
Hunter can get away with pumping DEX only and mediocre WIS(16)

it went from solid A tier to maybe C+.
and it was never broken by it self.
It was broken is some theorycraft; assassin+gloom+fighter2+pala smite for alpha strike combo.

now instead if limiting smite to Once on your turn(not Bonus action BS) and limiting Assassins auto crit to attack that carries sneak attack only, they trashed 3 (sub)classes.
talk about overkill.

I think the Wisdom Ranger tangent started here.

 

[Horwath]

so, ranger very good at tier1, or even the best, or is it just a very (over)powerful 1st level ranger.

at tier2&3, ranger just takes a dive of the cliff with damage.

beserker does 60% more damage than the ranger in tier2&3.
I do not think that ranger's utility and occasional AoE will bridge that gap.

maybe point for concentration-less HM is very close to level 5, maybe level 9 at the latest when 3rd level spells come online.


right now, the best ranger is a fighter with 1 level of ranger and to call yourself a ranger.
take 3 levels if you really want a subclass, but you are delaying that 3rd attack too much for it.

 

[Zardnaar]

so, ranger very good at tier1, or even the best, or is it just a very (over)powerful 1st level ranger.

at tier2&3, ranger just takes a dive of the cliff with damage.

beserker does 60% more damage than the ranger in tier2&3.

I do not think that ranger's utility and occasional AoE will bridge that gap.

maybe point for concentration-less HM is very close to level 5, maybe level 9 at the latest when 3rd level spells come online.


right now, the best ranger is a fighter with 1 level of ranger and to call yourself a ranger.
take 3 levels if you really want a subclass, but you are delaying that 3rd attack too much for it.

There's some issues with his builds though.

Berzerkers more or less outdamage everything. At least in melee in a white room. Zealots aren't to far behind.

Other builds of his were bad. He was comparing inadvertently one of the best builds to some of his junk ones.

Still useful as a guide but yeah. He uses "not counting specific builds" but I can get better numbers swapping a feat or using same weapon his "good builds do.

Damage isn't everything either eg Paladins.

Some other posters Here have also done better than him without anything to specific eg race or feat combo.

He outright screwed up his Sorcerer test build imho. He was also doing things like comparing a greatsword barbarian with gwm feat to sword and board whatever.

Downside of Barbarians of course they're a one trick pony.

 

[Horwath]

There's some issues with his builds though.

Berzerkers more or less outdamage everything. At least in melee in a white room. Zealots aren't to far behind.

Other builds of his were bad. He was comparing inadvertently one of the best builds to some of his junk ones.

Still useful as a guide but yeah. He uses "not counting specific builds" but I can get better numbers swapping a feat or using same weapon his "good builds do.

Damage isn't everything either eg Paladins.

Some other posters Here have also done better than him without anything to specific eg race or feat combo.

He outright screwed up his Sorcerer test build imho. He was also doing things like comparing a greatsword barbarian with gwm feat to sword and board whatever.

Downside of Barbarians of course they're a one trick pony.

this I agree, some builds could have been made better.

But I did simple math comparison with Hand crossbows.
Champion 10 with 2Hand crossbows and SS+CE+Piercer
Champion 9/ranger 1
Hunter 10 with SS+CE

champion9/ranger1 is best damage if you can keep HM most of the time. Prof in Con helps

Champion 10 is second

ranger 10 is 3rd,but most of the spell slots are left for utility so that is something to consider.

it's a question if it's worth sacrificing your Bonus action damage that will deal about 10 damage to deal 13,5 damage in a radius for a 3rd level slot.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Treantmonk used a one level fighter dip for the hexblade.

So I say starting as a 1 level fighter as a ranger, or maybe even add a 2nd level will work wonders if single target damage in melee is your concern.

Better saves, better armor. A second fighting style. Second wind, action surge and tactical mind. And then add ranger as much as you like. If you want your epic boon, go fighter 3 at some point and then you need to decide: level 5 spells or another epic boon as your capstone.
(Assuming, you can take an epic boon feat instead of a regular one.)