D&D 5E Does the Eldritch Knight suck?

[krakistophales]

Gish is a fighter magic user, and while it's exact definition varies from edition to edition, in this edition it generally means cast arcane spells and gets at least two attacks per attack action. It's from the AD&D days when people would play Githyanki fighter/mages, gith got turned into gish.

As for whether or not eldritch knight sucks, well that depends. It's a perfectly functional class, but their abilities are somewhat at odds to how they are usually built. For instance they can grant disadvantage on saves, but don't have much in the way of save or suck, nor would they given they are usually built with a low spell casting stat. With that said they are built on the rock solid base that is the fighter, so it's pretty hard to screw it up. Are their better choices if you want to build a Gish, certainly, but it's a pretty low effort build.

As soon as we add multi classing things get different, There are two logical breaks for multi classing lvl 7 (two attacks and war magic) and 11 (three attacks and Eldritch strike).

7th is the best break point level because of war magic. Green flame blade includes a weapon attack and when you add another attack from war magic you are getting into some seriously respectable at will damage. That also gets you an extra ASI which will offset the one you loose from multiclassing at a non divisible by 4 level. You also get action surge (one of the best nova abilities in the game), a fighting style, and fighter proficiency. You then add wizard to this, and your EK levels give you two additional levels of spell slots. You'll finish at 20 with a seventh level spells, and an eight level slot. At this point blade signer doesn't get you much since you'll be rocking heavy armor and a dex dump stat, so I'd suggest picking abjuration as your wizard college because you'll be in melee and be using quite a few abjuration spells, which means a lot of temporary HP.

11th is the other break point, but the three attacks is kind of wasted, since you'll get similar results from green flame blade. The real gem is eldritch strike, but you won't have many wizard levels to get those save or suck spells to take advantage of the disadvantage.

How does EK 7/wizard 13 stack up to the other gishes, fairly well. Unlike the blade singer you have a reason to be in melee, and unlike EK your spell casting is actually decent.

So is it the case then that taking 20 levels of EK will always be an inferior choice, both in terms of DPR output, utility, and versatility to either a multiclassed EK/wizard or better straightforward options like paladin/tempest/war domain cleric? Sorry if I don't mention valor bard or bladelocks here, but bladelocks don't get martial prof/heavy armor like paladins and domain clerics do, and I know nothing about valor bards.

 

[mellored]

If you are looking for a gish, you're probably best off with a ranger or paladin. They do a much better job at 1/2 spells 1/2 weapons, and have some attack-enhancing spells (ensnaring shot / smites).

Warlocks don't do to shabby either. And you can probably work with elemenal monks as well.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Of course 'Gish' was a Fiend Folio 1e Githyanki fighter/magic-user, not just any fighter/caster combo. It fairly quickly came to be shorthand for fighter/magic-user (fighter/wizard; fighter/arcanist), but this even less precise fighter/caster use seems fairly new.

The EK (and Bladesinger) allow you to play a fighter/magic-user when the optional Multi-Classing rules aren't in effect. That's it, really, you can get more customized in how much fighter vs how much magic-user you want if MCing is available, making the sub-classes almost moot.

 

[Prism]

So is it the case then that taking 20 levels of EK will always be an inferior choice, both in terms of DPR output, utility, and versatility to either a multiclassed EK/wizard or better straightforward options like paladin/tempest/war domain cleric? Sorry if I don't mention valor bard or bladelocks here, but bladelocks don't get martial prof/heavy armor like paladins and domain clerics do, and I know nothing about valor bards.

Hmm, its probably lacking in utility compared with jumping out at 7th level, but there are some pretty nice abilities gained at those later levels. Along with the standard fighter benefits of an extra action surge, two or more extra ASI's, 3 save rerolls a day and up to 4 attacks you get some nice ability to mix it up with spells and weapons. For example you could weapon attack one round using either 4 attacks or 1 plus green flame blade. Assuming one attack hits you can cast a spell like hold person the following round with disadvantage on the save. This gets then followed up with an immediate bonus attack which could be an automatic critical if the opponent failed their save vs the hold. You also get a couple of free teleports per short rest.

Much like any class I would say the core benefits of the fighter are the fighter benefits themselves rather than the subclass features

 

[TwoSix]

So is it the case then that taking 20 levels of EK will always be an inferior choice, both in terms of DPR output, utility, and versatility to either a multiclassed EK/wizard or better straightforward options like paladin/tempest/war domain cleric? Sorry if I don't mention valor bard or bladelocks here, but bladelocks don't get martial prof/heavy armor like paladins and domain clerics do, and I know nothing about valor bards.

The only real reason to take Fighter past 7-8 is to get Extra Attack 3 and 4. And those features don't mix well with War Magic, which is the single best reason to take EK in a post-SCAG world.

It's a trifle obvious, but I do like Paladin2/Bladelock (or Tomelock) X for a warlock gish, especially if you can leverage together Greenflame Blade, Undying Light Warlock, and Shillelagh for Charisma stacking Smite shenanigans.

 

[Grimgold]

So is it the case then that taking 20 levels of EK will always be an inferior choice, both in terms of DPR output, utility, and versatility to either a multiclassed EK/wizard or better straightforward options like paladin/tempest/war domain cleric? Sorry if I don't mention valor bard or bladelocks here, but bladelocks don't get martial prof/heavy armor like paladins and domain clerics do, and I know nothing about valor bards.

20 levels of EK will be functional, but behind the other gish options in terms of DPR and utility. While its not best in breed, It's not a trap that I would warn people away from like Elemental Monk or most builds of beast master ranger.

Also Blade locks generally take their first level in fighter to get heavy armor and a fighting style, saves a ton of work trying to get it later. Bard is kind of the ubermensch class this edition, more so lore bards but valor bards are also pretty spectacular.

 

[mellored]

The only real reason to take Fighter past 7-8 is to get Extra Attack 3 and 4. And those features don't mix well with War Magic, which is the single best reason to take EK in a post-SCAG world.

A second action surge and more ABI (+2 Int, +2 Str, warcaster) mesh just fine with war magic.
Indomitable is ok too.

I agree that 3rd and 4th attacks don't do much if your using booming blade.

 

[TwoSix]

A second action surge and more ABI (+2 Int, +2 Str, warcaster) mesh just fine with war magic.
Indomitable is ok too.

I agree that 3rd and 4th attacks don't do much if your using booming blade.

No, that's fair.

I guess my thinking is I like EK if you know the campaign is running purely at low levels, and won't get much past levels 7-9. If you know the game is going to hit 12+, I'd much rather have a Valor Bard or Cleric or Bladesinger if I know I want a gish.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Does the Eldritch knight archetype suck when compared to other gishes like tempest/war domain clerics or paladins? Or even multiclass wizard/fighter? Or even previous iterations like pathfinder's magus? Why or why not?

The Eldritch Knight is the best kind of fighter. Absorb Elements, Shield, built-in Magic Weapon, can leverage Sharpshooter and four attacks per round plus Action Surge... Eldritch Knights rock. Two variations that I love are Sharpshooter EK 11/Necromancer 7/Rogue 2 (for Greater Invisibility + Cunning Action defensive shenanigans while skeleton archers pepper the enemy with arrows) when you roll nice stats, and the simpler but less stat-demanding Sharpshooter EK 11/Swashbuckler 9 for when you roll mediocre stats (15, 12, 12, 11, 10, 9) but still want to be awesome as the party scout + face + DPR specialist + single-target controller.

Note that Panache does not break hiding or invisibility, and the target does not have to see you in order to be taunted: you just have to be within 60' and it has to be able to hear you mocking it. You can taunt it while slipping away behind racks of furniture. Either it tries to shake it off and fight the other party members at disadvantage, or it chases you and gets shived before you stab it and then run off again (because Fancy Footwork + Cunning Action (Dash)!). Try and tell me that's not an awesome movie in your head now.

But they're fighters, not wizards.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

Hi all. The Eldritch Knight really intrigues me for several reasons, but I haven't read up on the class at all. Can someone help me on these questions about the EK?

Can the EK access / prepare spells outside of evocation & abjuration?

Can the EK cast scrolls from outside of evocation & abjuration? (e.g. scroll of Knock)

Can the EK put his spells onto the party rogue? (e.g. Invisibility or Bull's Strength)

If the EK is captured by the enemy and thrown in jail, is he more or less useful than a champion / BM in the same situation?

I guess I'm trying to gauge how the EK functions in the Exploration Tier. I just don't know how he works.