Does There Need To Be More Player Focus?

[JoeGKushner]

One of the things I noticed when asking about magic item wish list and asking if you allow the players to narrate in the campaign, is that sometimes the players just don't seem to know how to move out of a certain comfort range.

And this strikes me as part of the problem with D&D. There are probably a dozen or so books aimed at players, but most of them are so focused on the crunch of the game, that they don't go into talking about HOW to play the game outside of running characters in the rules sense. There's not a lot of discussion about asking yoru GM to allow you to narrate, there's not a lot of discussion about understanding the needs of the GM instead of just asking to allow you to use every bit from every book you've bought.

I think that there is potentially a huge benefit in providing more player focused material that's not reliant on new crunch. First, it can provide some differences to the GMs. I've seen in multiple posts that there is a lot of frustration among the players and the GMs and I have to think part of that comes from players not having a lot of versitility in their tool belts while GM's are encouraged to try X, Y, and Z.

Am I missing some great options for players in terms of expanding how they play somewhere? Is there anything like the DMG2 or Hamlet's Hit Points or other books focused on the GMing side of thing's that don't necessarily talk about game rules but how to build entertaining bits for the players outside of the mechanics?

 

[WheresMyD20]

I think there may be a problem of marketability. Would a non-crunch book aimed at 4e players sell well enough to justify publishing it? If it doesn't contain new powers and feats to further power-up their character, would they even give it a second look?

 

[Derulbaskul]

The basic problem is that players are lazy (a generalisation, I know).

Seriously, most players are too lazy to take up DM duties or to do any basic research. That's fine, I like DMing, but it's fairly rare that any of them will put any effort into the game away from the table. (I actually like min/maxers at my table for the simple reason that they put some effort in!)

As a result, I think that products along the lines of what you're proposing would be massive commercial failures.

 

[Bluenose]

I haven't found this to be so. In my GMing experience a majority of players are perfectly happy to work on background information and get involved in world building, 'narrative' in the broadest sense. And I've found that ones who do are often later willing to make an attempt to run a game, simply because they've realised that the 'creative' part of the game can be fun in and for itself. Though I should say that I suspect one reason I've been successful in getting players to be creative, to invent religions and cultures and trading groups and secret societies, is that I've always been willing to work them somewhere into the setting. Within certain limits (no more greater gods, thanks), which I try to make plain beforehand. Players who are used to their creativity having results will be creative, will narrate, will make my job easier. And sometimes their ideas will cross-fertilise, and players will respond to each others creativity to make something more original and imaginative than I would have come up with.

I'll note by the way that I don't expect them to do research. If they have an idea, they can ask me where it fits and if there's nowhere suitable I'll expand the map. It's an advantage of homebrewing. Even if after nearly thirty years there are less gaps than I'd like.

Short version; if the players think narrative has results, they'll narrate.

 

[Lanefan]

I think there may be a problem of marketability. Would a non-crunch book aimed at 4e players sell well enough to justify publishing it? If it doesn't contain new powers and feats to further power-up their character, would they even give it a second look?

Why does it have to focus only on 4e?

Such a publication could easily be made edition-neutral, as much the same advice applies across the board and a good player in one game is more likely to be a good player in others.

Digging deep in the 1e PH finds some good advice on how to play, but it's not really laid out as such and also not all in one place.

Lanefan

 

[LostSoul]

I wrote a "Player's Guide" for my 4E hack. Not as detailed as the DM's Guide, but still.

CREATE A DRIVEN CHARACTER
(The game won't work otherwise)

RISK AND REWARD
(More risk, more reward)

ENGAGE THE GAME WORLD
(Use the details of the game world to your advantage)

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
(Restrictive thinking will kill you)

METAGAME INFORMATION
(Use it)

BE A GOOD SPORT
(Failure is a part of the game)

TRUST THE DM
(He's not out to kill you)

 

[JoeGKushner]

In terms of edition setting, I could be getting senile, but I remember one of the fun things about the 2e complete books was the various personality types they had listed. These were not tied into the kits themselves, but were bits appropriate for the class in discussion. Things like the Fated Philospiher and the Doomed Champion in the Complete Fighter among others.

And Lost Soul, the whole be a good sport, man, sometimes I've seen players act like they were touched on the doll when something doesn't go their way. There needs to be a LOT more said about table manners, expectation of what one player's role is, etc...

 

[Oryan77]

From my experience, players see learning anything fluffy as "homework".

I had a player once that kept asking me all of these questions about the game world during the game. I don't mind doing this, but not when it is constantly holding up the game. The nice thing about the 2e Planescape campaign is that it come with a lot of Player's Guides. So I reminded this player that I have these guides and she is always welcome to read them outside of the game. I was being polite and trying to be helpful, and her response was angry and she accused me of giving her homework. I can only do so much to teach about the world in game (and I do), but I mean, that is what those books are for.

I am always reminding players about these Player Guide books. Out of all of the players that I've had, I think 1 guy read 1 chapter out of 1 book. Nobody even asks me if they can look at any Planescape books on my shelf to learn more fluff to improve their character. But they've pretty much gone through every 3.5 sourcebook to scour through all the crunch that may improve their character.

I envy DMs that have players that get really into a setting. Besides myself (I loved learning about Dark Sun back when I was a 2e Dark Sun player), I've never seen it happen.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I gotta go with the crowd here. I LOVE the idea. Think it's absolutely fantastic to have a book that really speaks to players. Sort of the player version of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering. But, as was said, anyone who needs to read said book, probably wouldn't and anyone who actually did, probably didn't need to in the first place. :/

It might be a good idea though, to stealth it in. Make sure that the crunch heavy books have lots of advice on how to play the character's presented. Not just a couple of paragraphs of game fiction, but, a section with each class that spells out some ideas on what it means to really get into X class from a play table (rather than in game) perspective.

 

[Henry]

Courtesy of an awesome podcast known as "The Game's the Thing":

Play Unsafe by Graham Walmsley in Entertainment

There are plenty of resources available for helping players shake themselves out of their comfort zones, but the problem is that these resources need to be promoted.


Another product:
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If there's one thing that will inspire a player to get into the moment and the story, it's to experiment with the "voice" their character speaks in. Some people just can't drive thelselves to this action, and if it notably upsets them or makes them too uncomfortable, that's OK. But for some players (kind of like karaoke in a bar) they won't know until they at least try it, and they might find a world of fun in the experience.