OSR Dolmenwood Books

[cbwjm]

God damn these books are incredible. I love every part of them...

Except for the skill system. I'm not crazy about those. Is there an elegant, unobtrusive way to replace that? Otherwise everything in the rules is great.

The books are amazing, there is a lot of information in the campaign book, so much that I've missed when running some players through the various hexes on their way home to Prigwort.

I'm kind of liking the simple nature of the d6 skills, but it shouldn't be difficult to change. Is there a skill system you prefer?

 

[Bae'zel]

The books are amazing, there is a lot of information in the campaign book, so much that I've missed when running some players through the various hexes on their way home to Prigwort.

I'm kind of liking the simple nature of the d6 skills, but it shouldn't be difficult to change. Is there a skill system you prefer?

In theory the d6 is fine, but it “feels” like the odds are against the PCs. Many characters begin with only 1 in 6 chance, which is not great. However I admit that I’m not fully clear on when to call for a roll in the first place. Despite reading a lot of literature on the matter, it’s still confusing to me.

For example, if the thief is well equipped, and has no pressure, can the just pick a lock without rolling? Only rolling when things are hectic or dangerous? Even so, the odds of success are ugly (unless they can add their ability mod?).

I get that OSR tends to mean “hard mode” and all, but to many of my friends, that will be a hard sell. It already has been…

I guess I prefer how Shadowdark does it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This or just attribute checks with adv/dis.

The Shadowdark method! (It always comes back to Shadowdark.)

 

[zakael19]

In theory the d6 is fine, but it “feels” like the odds are against the PCs. Many characters begin with only 1 in 6 chance, which is not great. However I admit that I’m not fully clear on when to call for a roll in the first place. Despite reading a lot of literature on the matter, it’s still confusing to me.

For example, if the thief is well equipped, and has no pressure, can the just pick a lock without rolling? Only rolling when things are hectic or dangerous? Even so, the odds of success are ugly (unless they can add their ability mod?).

I get that OSR tends to mean “hard mode” and all, but to many of my friends, that will be a hard sell. It already has been…

I guess I prefer how Shadowdark does it.

Remember that Dungeon Turns are a key measure of pressure on players in this system. If your Thief declares that for this turn they are trying to open a lock, and they fail, they can try again! It just ticks the turn along, which advances time and torch use and Wandering Monster checks, etc. If there's no pressure at all (eg: not in a dungeon, or they've secured the space somehow), you might Rule that they'll pick the lock with no roll it just idk takes a couple of Turns or whatever makes sense.

You could also allow your player to use the optional Expertise Points rules, so if they really care about Locks they can get to a 3/6 right away.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In theory the d6 is fine, but it “feels” like the odds are against the PCs. Many characters begin with only 1 in 6 chance, which is not great. However I admit that I’m not fully clear on when to call for a roll in the first place. Despite reading a lot of literature on the matter, it’s still confusing to me.

For example, if the thief is well equipped, and has no pressure, can the just pick a lock without rolling? Only rolling when things are hectic or dangerous? Even so, the odds of success are ugly (unless they can add their ability mod?).

My understanding -- as someone who's just watching closely from the sidelines -- is that Dolmenwood expects one to use a method I first saw explained in Knock magazine:

• If you have the tools for the job, the skills needed and no time pressure, there's no roll, because you automatically succeed
• If any two of those are not true, there's no roll, because you automatically fail
• But if only one of those criteria is not met, you roll and see what happens

So the thief with tools and all the time in the world can open any lock, unless this is a super-special lock. But if he's doing it while the king's archers are firing on the group while they try to get away, he needs to roll to see if he can do it under that kind of pressure.

Or, if the thief is dead, but the party has taken his gear (because that's the real old school), the cleric has the tools and the time to open the lock, but not the training, she will need to roll and see if she can muddle through.

If you let characters who ought to succeed automatically do so, old school games (and NSR games like Mothership) become a lot less punishing and dice rolls become more meaningful across the board.

 

[zakael19]

My understanding -- as someone who's just watching closely from the sidelines -- is that Dolmenwood expects one to use a method I first saw explained in Knock magazine:

• If you have the tools for the job, the skills needed and no time pressure, there's no roll, because you automatically succeed
• If any two of those are not true, there's no roll, because you automatically fail
• But if only one of those criteria is not met, you roll and see what happens

So the thief with tools and all the time in the world can open any lock, unless this is a super-special lock. But if he's doing it while the king's archers are firing on the group while they try to get away, he needs to roll to see if he can do it under that kind of pressure.

Or, if the thief is dead, but the party has taken his gear (because that's the real old school), the cleric has the tools and the time to open the lock, but not the training, she will need to roll and see if she can muddle through.

If you let characters who ought to succeed automatically do so, old school games (and NSR games like Mothership) become a lot less punishing and dice rolls become more meaningful across the board.

Yeah note that Time Pressure is generally always expected to be a Thing in dungeons though, and only Thieves and certain Kindred have the ability to Pick Locks.

Edit: also note that the game suggests situational modifiers ranging from a -2/+2 which can make a huge difference in the chance of success on a single Turn.

 

[cbwjm]

In theory the d6 is fine, but it “feels” like the odds are against the PCs. Many characters begin with only 1 in 6 chance, which is not great. However I admit that I’m not fully clear on when to call for a roll in the first place. Despite reading a lot of literature on the matter, it’s still confusing to me.

For example, if the thief is well equipped, and has no pressure, can the just pick a lock without rolling? Only rolling when things are hectic or dangerous? Even so, the odds of success are ugly (unless they can add their ability mod?).

I get that OSR tends to mean “hard mode” and all, but to many of my friends, that will be a hard sell. It already has been…

I guess I prefer how Shadowdark does it.

I'd say that, depending on how you're using time, you could essentially say that each attempt takes 1 turn. Eventually they'll roll their target number and then you can just mark off an amount of time which might be important if you're tracking things like torches (can the team afford the thief to have another go at the lock when their torches are dwindling?). You don't add your ability mod to the skill check, but I could see granting some bonus points to a thief that can adjust a few skills, makes having even a dexterity of 13 a bit more meaningful if they can start with a score of 4 instead of 6 in pick locks. I'd also highly recommend the optional skill customisation which lets the players focus more on a couple of core skills.

Otherwise, not calling for a roll if the outcome doesn't matter or they aren't pressed for time and just allowing them to open something like a locked chest I think would be fine, especially if it's a small chest that they've taken out of a dungeon and are working on cracking overnight.

I had a look at shadowdark for skill checks, they use ability checks and grant advantage on rolls that a class is skilled in (I think that's the general idea), I think that's a pretty good system. If you use the ability checks in dolmenwood, then that's a d6 roll + modifier against a target number of 4. You could leave it at that or you could say that the thief has normal chances and others have a -2 to the roll for any skill they don't have listed in their class which would help cement the thief as the skilled class.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I had a look at shadowdark for skill checks, they use ability checks and grant advantage on rolls that a class is skilled in (I think that's the general idea)

Ancestries and especially backgrounds can also play into it, which nicely differentiates characters who are otherwise pretty mechanically similar.

 

[cbwjm]

Ancestries and especially backgrounds can also play into it, which nicely differentiates characters who are otherwise pretty mechanically similar.

That's a good point, a few of the races in dolmenwood have better skills that would grant them advantage on the check.

 

[Bae'zel]

@Whizbang Dustyboots "flowchart" is perfect for me:

• If you have the tools for the job, the skills needed and no time pressure, there's no roll, because you automatically succeed
• If any two of those are not true, there's no roll, because you automatically fail
• But if only one of those criteria is not met, you roll and see what happens

So essentially, I'll handle skils:

• Only call for a roll using the flowchart above
• as ability checks (roll under ability score, like in Shadowdark).
• If the skill is one that is explicitly mentioned in a Class or Kindred-Class (eg, Detect Magic, Legerdemain etc.) the PC gets advantage on the roll

Nice and simple for me. Intuitive, even...

Cheers for the advice folks!