Dominate spells

[Lord Ben]

Okay, I've never actually used the Dominate spells as I'm a new Dm but my PC's are getting to the point where they fight things with this ability or spell. How do they work? What is considered against their nature and what guidelines do I use when determining if they get a bonus to their saving throw and how much? Any examples would be great.

The best example I can think of is what do do if a Vampire (I'm running the temple of EE right now) gazes at the Barb who has +4 will save and the Barbarian botches. Now the Vampire wants the CN Barbarian to turn on the LG Cleric. I assume attacking a party member is against his nature so he gets a new saving throw, does he get a bonus? Does he get the saving throw every round or only when ordered to attack his teammate?

 

[gfunk]

Wow, this is really a loaded question and I'm afraid that they are no concrete answers provided in the rules. Here's the way that I would rule it:

IMO, "nature" refers to alignment more than anything else. This assumes, of course, that a PC's alignment is accurate and would have been changed by the DM to something more appropriate if it were inaccurate. Anyway it would only be against the nature of "good (CG,NG,LG)" PCs not to attack their party members. For everyone else, I would consider them members of the party for fun and profit rather than for achieving the "greater good."

So I would allow the CN Barbarian go at the LG Cleric without a save, especially if he were raging.

Of course this is subject to extenuating circumstances. I believe if the Cleric directly saved the Barbarians life, I would give the Barb another unmodified save to resist.

Personally you need to look at the spell and see where it lies along the Enchantment power chain. I think people should give it a little more leeway since it is 5th level and it is limited to humanoids.

But be careful with the "nature" argument, b/c its very difficult to rule on.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't use "nature" = "alignment".

It really depends on the character. Why is he with the group? If he's just there to pick up treasure along the way, attacking the cleric won't take more than a nudge. If he's there for stronger reasons, it might and might not.

A ranger/barbarian with favored enemy (orcs) who's dominated to heal the orc-chieftain he just dropped in a rage would surely get another save as something "against his nature".

On the flip side, party bonds aren't often as tight as they should be. At the beginning of a session, one of my characters was in a position to be dominated by a foe. I warned the DM that my character didn't care enough about *any* of the party members to warrent any particular bonus - and he was NG.

 

[EOL]

This is one of those situations where you just have to make your best call as a DM. For help you can try comparing the intended effects of the spell against other spells of the same level. If the dominated Barbarian is going to end up doing 10 times the damage of a spell of the same level then that should probably give you cause to call for a new save.

IMHO enchantments work best when you're being sneaky. Like having the Barbarian abandon his place in the front and leaving the mage open. Or having one of the enemies run away and commanding the dominated character to follow, abandoning the party and possibly falling into a trap. Stuff like this should almost never allow for a second save and can sometimes be as damaging as some more direct commands.

 

[Lord Ben]

Okay, good tactics besides just asking the barbarian to clomp his friends.

I prefer spells that are direct, they're easier to not abuse.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Neutrality

According to the description of Neutral alignments, neutral characters will fight for friends. So if a neutral party member is friends with the rest of the party, Dominating them to kill the party gives them another save.

Even an evil character within the party might get a save, if working for the Dominate-caster will work against their purposes (eg being killed later). However, if the caster were to promise Bronn the evil sellsword to attack his party members in return for gold and a promise not to harm him, I wouldn't give Bronn a save.

Anyway, two lawful good character can be completely different (imagine a slightly greedy dwarf who cares mainly about his clan, and perhaps serves Moradin, the LG god of dwarves, to better care for his clan; compared to the young paladin who sees glory in vanquishing evil foes and truly cares about the people in the village her is rescuing, *even those who aren't good*. Totally different concepts.

The second save applies to orders; they don't get a save every round.