Domination and optional add-on effects -- who decides?

[DracoSuave]

Dominated is pretty clear... it's full control over the character's actions. The only thing the character gets to choose or have any sort of say in are non-actions. Everything else is fair game for the dominator, within the limits of the dominated condition.

In the case of the fighter, an active stance is an active power used. The dominator can make full use of the stance's benefits while spamming the fighter's MBA.

 

[Aulirophile]

When a PC has at-will attacks that have optional add-on effects, which effects can be applied when the PC is dominated?

For example, let's take an Epic Tier Knight who uses the Defend the Line stance with a hammer, and has the feats Hammer Shock, World Serpent's Grasp, and Overwhelming Impact. Assume the Knight is already Slowed from an earlier attack.

A Mind Flayer Mastermind uses its Enslave power to dominate the Knight. The Mastermind forces the Knight to make an MBA against a Druid ally. The MBA hits. Aside from the damage, the following effects can be applied:

1. Hammer Shock can Rattle the Druid
2. World Serpent's Grasp can knock the Druid prone (because the Druid is already Slowed)
3. Defend the Line can Slow the Druid, or Overwhelming Impact can convert the Slowed to Dazed.

Which conditions are imposed? For #3, who decides which?

1. Hammer Shock works, isn't optional.
2. WSG doesn't, it is a No Action decision (You Can Knock Prone, not "You Knock Prone.") The dominator gets to pick one action (for the same reason dominated Rogues don't have to SA).
3. Defend the Line would Slow (because it auto-slows you when MBA), but you can't Daze because Overwhelming Impact is optional and thus requires a decision on the part of the attacker (which is a No Action, but still in game terms an action... and the dominator again gets one chosen action only).

Because those actions are not inherent in the MBA and are a choice the PC can make, the dominator doesn't get them (and technically the PC couldn't even choose to activate them while dominated, they can't take actions). But if, for instance, you had someone with Eldritch Strike (slide 1 MBA) the dominator would choose to slide or not to slide and where to, because the slide is inherent in the power and not a separate action (or no action).

 

[DracoSuave]

but you can't Daze because Overwhelming Impact is optional and thus requires a decision on the part of the attacker (which is a No Action, but still in game terms an action... and the dominator again gets one chosen action only).

Something cannot be a No Action, and still be an action. That makes this interpretation illogical, and self-contradictory. If it is a No Action, it is NOT an action. If it is an action, it cannot be a No Action. Things that do not take up actions are NOT ACTIONS.

Secondly, dominated allows the use of game features provided they are not free actions, and they are at-will. All three of those feats are.

The feats involved are not free actions, they are not encounter-usage, nor daily-usage, and therefore dominated explicitly permits their usage as part of the . Choices about their execution are made by the dominator.

The caveat here is that such game features must be part of the action invoked by the dominator. Because they are all part of the attack made, yes, they can all apply, and yes, the dominator can choose to activate them, just like any other decision inherent in that action. If the feats instead said 'as a free action...' or 'take an additional standard action' or any declaration of a second action then they could not be used. They are NOT a second action however, and therefore dominated cannot be excluded from them.

Because those actions are not inherent in the MBA and are a choice the PC can make, the dominator doesn't get them (and technically the PC couldn't even choose to activate them while dominated, they can't take actions).

Dominated checks: Are they game elements? (Check) Are they usable at-will? (Check) Are they part of the action invoked? (Check, the creature is using an MBA, and therefore they apply. No rule exists to contradict their applying, therefore they are part of the action. They do not need to be written into the power, any more than the dominated creature's strength bonus has to be. The only things the dominator aren't permitted to decide are free actions, and game elements outside that single action)

The dominated condition does not change the dominated creature from being a teammate to not being a teammate. It won't change allies to enemies or enemies to allies. This sort of decision is not entirely in the hands of the dominator, and it does not qualify under the 'one action per turn' rule. This is not a decision decided on an action-per-action basis, or unilaterally.

 

[Aulirophile]

They aren't part of the attacks made. And, in game terms, No Action is an action type (I don't claim this makes sense, but under "action types" No Action is listed as a type of action). The dominator gets to pick one action. Only one, if he has picked that action (He has, MBA) then anything else that requires a decision or any kind of action (including No Actions because they are an action type by RAW) he cannot activate those, because he has used up his action. If a character has extra things that can be added onto an at-will power but they involve a decision then the dominator cannot make them, because that is another action.

That is the RAW answer, at least. I imagine table variation is.... large.

Edit: Checked the RC out of curiosity, they have removed the section explaining No Actions, and it is just a blurb now in "Triggered Actions." Some Triggered actions do not require an action to use, but you cannot "use" them unless their trigger is met. To me that brings it back to the land of being relatively unclear, which is a shame since the RC cleared up so many other issues, but since the most recently published rule is the correct one... so long as whatever it you're adding onto the At-Will is Not an Action and is doable at-will the dominator can make the decision to use it. That is a pretty big bump for dominators and I wonder if the Enchanter Mage build had anything to do with it.

 

[DracoSuave]

They aren't part of the attacks made. And, in game terms, No Action is an action type (I don't claim this makes sense, but under "action types" No Action is listed as a type of action). The dominator gets to pick one action. Only one, if he has picked that action (He has, MBA) then anything else that requires a decision or any kind of action (including No Actions because they are an action type by RAW) he cannot activate those, because he has used up his action. If a character has extra things that can be added onto an at-will power but they involve a decision then the dominator cannot make them, because that is another action.

That is the RAW answer, at least. I imagine table variation is.... large.

Edit: Checked the RC out of curiosity, they have removed the section explaining No Actions, and it is just a blurb now in "Triggered Actions." Some Triggered actions do not require an action to use, but you cannot "use" them unless their trigger is met. To me that brings it back to the land of being relatively unclear, which is a shame since the RC cleared up so many other issues, but since the most recently published rule is the correct one... so long as whatever it you're adding onto the At-Will is Not an Action and is doable at-will the dominator can make the decision to use it. That is a pretty big bump for dominators and I wonder if the Enchanter Mage build had anything to do with it.

The downside is that the dominator can't control all actions or all powers. So a power that is used as No Action cannot be used, and if the player gets to do make a choice outside of that one action (like someone allows them to make a saving throw) the dominator does not get to choose to allow it to happen (or more accurately, not happen). Only choices inherent within that one action can be chosen.

It's actually a nerf, in reality.

 

[Pbartender]

So you would leave it up to the Dominated character's player, but expect them to choose the nastiest options for the situation?

Yeah. Admittedly you need the right players to do that.

Yep... that's how I'd do it too.

And especially so, if you make it easier for the Dominated character's player by being a little more helpful with the "command". Don't tell him, "Hit your friend," but tell him, "Hit your friend, and him HARD! I want you to knock his fillings out! He'll thank you for it later."