DR in PHB II - examples of backwards or limited use?

[TDRandall]

Does the damage reduction in PHB II in some places seem backwards or of limited use to anybody else?

I understand the basic concept that the item after the slash represents an inherent (pseudo-historical) weakness, so that silver for lycanthropes, cold iron for fey, (relatively) overpowering differing elements for elementals, opposite alignments for devils, demons, celestials, etc.

But why would spells have a DR that fails to exactly the thing you're probably facing and need it against? The Invest [] Protection spells for instance have a DR #/evil, but it is exactly against evil that you probably need the DR most. The more sensible thing for good casters would seem to be to have a DR that failed against anything non-evil instead; maybe I'm supposed to read it as DR # vs evil?

Only thing I can reason is that it was meant to be a tradeoff to bring the spell level down, but the non DR portions of the spells don't seem so out of whack to the spell level, at least to me, and the "in addition" portion of the description certainly makes it seem to be intended as a bonus.

It hit me strongest with these particular spells, although I remember getting the same uneasy/backward feeling earlier in the book so other spells or maybe class special abilities. Wondering what other people thought.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But why would spells have a DR that fails to exactly the thing you're probably facing and need it against? The Invest [] Protection spells for instance have a DR #/evil, but it is exactly against evil that you probably need the DR most. The more sensible thing for good casters would seem to be to have a DR that failed against anything non-evil instead; maybe I'm supposed to read it as DR # vs evil?

It's bothered me in the past as well.

The suggestion that was made is that it creates a shield that is the 'essence of goodness', so to speak... and it can only be overcome by something sufficiently evil as to cancel it out.

It's not one of the rules that's most intuitive to me.

-Hyp.

 

[gnfnrf]

DR's ability to be bypassed is a bug, not a feature.

That is to say, the Invest Protection designer (ingame) didn't sit around and say "You know what would be great? If demons and devils could still hurt me after I cast this spell!" It just follows as a necessary consequence of means by which the spell accomplishes its effects.

--
gnfnrf

 

[UltimaGabe]

Think of it this way: Nobody, when getting DR, thinks to themselves, "I want protection that only my worst enemy can defeat!" Rather, they say, "I want protection that NOBODY can defeat!" Then, their worst enemy, not wanting them to have that protection, says, "Alright. Let's find a way to overcome that protection."

So DR/Evil isn't some magical protection that suddenly fails when evil things come- it's an all-around protection of good, which can only be shattered by absolute evil. See what I mean?

 

[Dog Moon]

DR's ability to be bypassed is a bug, not a feature.

That is to say, the Invest Protection designer (ingame) didn't sit around and say "You know what would be great? If demons and devils could still hurt me after I cast this spell!" It just follows as a necessary consequence of means by which the spell accomplishes its effects.

--
gnfnrf

How do you figure? Demons and Devils have DR/Good. That doesn't allow them to bypass DR/Evil which the spell grants.

 

[hong]

But why would spells have a DR that fails to exactly the thing you're probably facing and need it against? The Invest [] Protection spells for instance have a DR #/evil, but it is exactly against evil that you probably need the DR most. The more sensible thing for good casters would seem to be to have a DR that failed against anything non-evil instead; maybe I'm supposed to read it as DR # vs evil?

It means you get DR against everything except monsters with the [Evil] subtype. That means every monster except demons and devils, who are just so badass they can punch through even the most powerful of holy magics. It does not mean your DR fails against Joe Orc, the 1HD warrior who happens to be of chaotic evil alignment.

 

[Asmor]

How do you figure? Demons and Devils have DR/Good. That doesn't allow them to bypass DR/Evil which the spell grants.

No, the fact that they're evil outsiders allows them to bypass DR/Evil.

I've always found it amusing that Demons and Angels can both bypass both DR/Evil and /Good since a creature's natural attacks can always overcome its own type of resistance.

 

[Dog Moon]

No, the fact that they're evil outsiders allows them to bypass DR/Evil.

I've always found it amusing that Demons and Angels can both bypass both DR/Evil and /Good since a creature's natural attacks can always overcome its own type of resistance.

Oh, hah. Don't think I ever realized that. Never really has come up though in my group.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... since a creature's natural attacks can always overcome its own type of resistance.

That's not the case.

The natural attacks of a creature with DR X/Magic can overcome DR X/Magic. Magic and Epic are the only DRs that behave in this way.

The natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks of a creature with an Alignment subtype can overcome DR X/Alignment. Note that this is not the same as saying "DR X/Evil can bypass DR X/Evil".

Having DR X/Silver (or Adamantine or Cold Iron) doesn't let you bypass that DR. Having DR X/Bludgeoning (or Piercing or Slashing) doesn't let you bypass that DR. Having DR X/Alignment doesn't let you bypass that DR. And having DR X/-- certainly doesn't let you bypass that DR.

-Hyp.

 

[Asmor]

That's not the case.

The natural attacks of a creature with DR X/Magic can overcome DR X/Magic. Magic and Epic are the only DRs that behave in this way.

The natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks of a creature with an Alignment subtype can overcome DR X/Alignment. Note that this is not the same as saying "DR X/Evil can bypass DR X/Evil".

Having DR X/Silver (or Adamantine or Cold Iron) doesn't let you bypass that DR. Having DR X/Bludgeoning (or Piercing or Slashing) doesn't let you bypass that DR. Having DR X/Alignment doesn't let you bypass that DR. And having DR X/-- certainly doesn't let you bypass that DR.

-Hyp.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I swear I remembered reading somewhere that it applied to all types of DR (though it clearly doesn't make sense for bludgeoning/slashing/piercing)... In particular, I thought I remembered an example using a demon and a devil, who wouldn't be able to hurt each other with their natural weapons since they both had DR/Good except for this rule.