Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

[Sir Brennen]

No I was saying that the idea of having a universal cosmology as per including deities as well as realms is not a good one.

Who was talking about that? It's demonstrably not the case, either, since we already have the 4E FR setting as an example, with many unique planes and deities (some of which were even incorporated into core for 4E.)

Comparing the 4e FR cosmology to the 3e (I have both books open right now), the only real differences are combining of the elemental planes into the EC, loss of those planes no longer supported in 4e (Energy and Ethereal) and the adding of the Feywild. Some of the domains got shuffled up a bit due to the Spellplague - like the Dragon Eyrie seems to have vanished and Bane managed to get his own domain - but the group overall is unique to FR. Even the EC has some unique locations (called realms) for the FR setting. Then, comparing it to the core, I do not see things like the Iron Fortress domain, or gods like Kord or Pelor. (However, FR has always borrowed from core in all editions, including things like the Nine Hells and Abyss or Colleron. But in no way is its cosmology and pantheon a "slight mirror reflection" of the core.)

My only real concern is the paragraph that says something to the effect of: all 4E supplements are going to assume the current world axis cosmology as standard. I'm hoping they mean the generic supplements and not the campaign settings, because I still don't think it works right for Athas and Krynn.

I believe this is referring to non-campaign specific material.

But remember, the World Axis isn't an entire cosmology unto itself, so much as a framework. That framework has always existed in previous editions, it just wasn't as clearly spelled out. And it existed for the reasons stated in 4E - to allow magic related to the planes to have a consistent description of how it works, and, to a lesser extent, to not have to recreate origins of specific groups of creatures setting to setting. You can change these things, as the MotP points out, but you have to consider the impacts on existing mechanics and fluff assumptions.

The Forgotten Realms, even 2e and 3e, broke from the Great Wheel cosmology, but still used the framework elements of those editions: Astral, Shadow, Ethereal, Elemental and Energy. FR just took that framework and established it's own set of Outer Planes (nka Domains) unique to itself, so therefore it had it's own cosmology.

The Great Wheel itself is merely a cosmology built on this core framework.

Basically, what were called "Outer Planes" in previous editions are now "Domains", and that's usually where the greatest differences in cosmologies show up. 4E is built to make introducing these differences easier.

3E Eberron showed how one could take the framework and introduce additional concepts of how the planes relate to each other, making things even more interesting.

 

[Drkfathr1]

I suppose you could add the Black and the Gray to Athas as demi-planes, but there's no precedent for the Feywild or the Shadowfell. Not a world-ending problem, but it disrupts continuity. And the Black was certainly NOT the shadowfell in any sense, though the Gray almost was.

For Krynn, the Abyss is a very different animal and there is also no precedent for the Feywild or the Shadowfell.

Aside from the cosmology (and propably fodder for a different thread), I wonder how we're supposed to shoe-horn in Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Eladrin?

I guess if you advance Krynn's timeline you can turn the Silvanesti into the Eladrin, Draconains evolving into Dragonborn, but no idea on Tieflings. And once again, when you do that, you eliminate some of the elements of the setting that made it unique.

The uniqueness of those settings is what set some of them apart, trying to make them all the same diminishes that a great deal.

All of this would be easily solved, and make everyone happy, by just saying: you know what, the default cosmology for D&D 4E is THIS, and we're going to write most of our books with that in mind, BUT for specific settings we will take into account their differences.

I hold out hope that they'll still do that, but everything we've gotten so far says they want to homogenize all of the settings into one similar thing.

 

[Shemeska]

The Forgotten Realms, even 2e and 3e, broke from the Great Wheel cosmology,

FR used the Great Wheel cosmology in 2e, not any sort of variation. 3e retconned it into a new cosmology and glossed over the crossplanar material invalidated in the process. 4e FR promptly junked the 3e FR cosmology for the 4e default with a dash of whiteout and some scribbled over names.

 

[Caliber]

FR used the Great Wheel cosmology in 2e, not any sort of variation. 3e retconned it into a new cosmology and glossed over the crossplanar material invalidated in the process. 4e FR promptly junked the 3e FR cosmology for the 4e default with a dash of whiteout and some scribbled over names.

Technically, the 4E default grew out of the changes the FR team were implementing in FR. They drew up the whole Feywild/Shadowfell/EC/Astral Sea/Dominion thing and said ... hey this could be used in standard issue DnD as well! As so it was.

 

[Sir Brennen]

FR used the Great Wheel cosmology in 2e, not any sort of variation. 3e retconned it into a new cosmology and glossed over the crossplanar material invalidated in the process. 4e FR promptly junked the 3e FR cosmology for the 4e default with a dash of whiteout and some scribbled over names.

Ah, yes... I see that 2e FR did use the Great Wheel. Perhaps I was crediting the creators of 2E FR with too much creativity?

However, my point still stands that neither the 3E or 4E FR cosmologies use the default cosmology of their editions, but do use the default framework. The 4E planes map, for the most part, to their 3E counterparts, not to the core 4E domains, so I don't know where you get that they were just "a dash of whiteout and some scribbled over names".

 

[pemerton]

My only real concern is the paragraph that says something to the effect of: all 4E supplements are going to assume the current world axis cosmology as standard. I'm hoping they mean the generic supplements and not the campaign settings, because I still don't think it works right for Athas and Krynn.

The paragraph on p 13 says "all upcoming 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game products assume that the World Axis cosmology is the one you're using in your campaign". Page 12 lists, as examples of "The World" for different campaigns, Abeir-Toril, Athas, Eberron, Krynn and Oerth.

I think this is pretty unambiguous - whatever 4e products there are for Dark Sun or Krynn, the present intention of WoTC is that those products will presuppose the World Axis cosmology.

There is also a discussion of travelling to other worlds. On p 7, we are told "If a traveller journeys through a fundamental plane into the trackless reaches outside the know dominions and realms, sooner or later he or she comes to the divine dominions or elemental kingdoms of different mortal worlds." On p 8 we are told that the anomolous planes (ie those whose exact nature and place in the cosmology is unclear) include "other mortal worlds". And the Random Portal Destination table on p 18 indicates a 1 in 20 chance of the portal going to an "Alternate World".

So both Planescape-y and Spelljammer-y type options seems to be alive and well in the official rules (the latter by travelling on Astral Skiffs or Spelljammers to the edges of the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos). And these options presuppose a degree of common cosmology.

 

[Staffan]

I don't actually remember WHAT the cosmology of Krynn was... And Athas was just cut off right? I never had much experience with it.

Up until the release of Defilers & Preservers (one of the last books for Dark Sun), Dark Sun's cosmology was the same as everything else in 2e. It wasn't something the setting focused on (other than one adventure featuring a githyanki invasion, and an artifact designed to facilitiate planar travel in another), but there was nothing special about it. High-level clerics were expected to spend some of their time on their elemental planes.

Oh right, there was the stuff in Earth, Air, Fire and Water, the priest book for Dark Sun. They changed the paraelemental planes up a bit: Sun, Rain, and Silt instead of Smoke, Steam, and Ooze (Magma was the same). In the previous Dragon Kings book, the paraelemental planes had been referenced with their original names.

There were some references to Dark Sun in non-DS materials - Ravenloft had a domain taken from Athas, and there were scattered references in Planescape material. It was not compatible with Spelljammer though - the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook had a section on how it worked with different settings, and the section on Dark Sun basically said "Nope."

Defilers & Preservers added the concept of the Grey as an obstacle to planar contact (it had previously been used in the novels as a "realm of the dead". If you wanted to go to any other plane (or contact it with something like Contact Outer Plane), you had to roll d100+level and check against a table, leading either to success, failure, or getting stuck in the Grey. Getting to the Ethereal/Inner planes was easier than the Astral/Outer planes. Clerics got a free ride to their "own" planes though.

 

[Dire Bare]

Aside from the cosmology (and propably fodder for a different thread), I wonder how we're supposed to shoe-horn in Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Eladrin?

I guess if you advance Krynn's timeline you can turn the Silvanesti into the Eladrin, Draconains evolving into Dragonborn, but no idea on Tieflings. And once again, when you do that, you eliminate some of the elements of the setting that made it unique.

I'm guessing that Eladrin will get a retcon like they did in FR. In the 4e FR book, all of a sudden Sun Elves and Moon Elves are (and always have been) Eladrin. It wouldn't be all that different to retcon Silvanesti into Eladrin the same way. No need to advance the timeline. I'm not sure I'd like that, but that is what I'd expect.

threadjack: the FR book does not make a clear distinction between the Sun/Moon elf Eladrins and the "new" Eladrins popping up in places like the Moonshaes. Also, what about the "new" dark elves that are no longer Drow (from the events of the Lady Penitent series of books)?

Dragonborn are easy. What are Draconians, if not Dragonborn? I'd simply use Dragonborn as they are . . . with artwork showing Krynnish Dragonborn looking like our classic Draconians . . . and then offer perhaps racial powers, feats, and/or paragon paths to more closely model some of the unique abilities of specific Draconian "breeds". No evolution necessary. Although lets get some Draconian-sounding names for the so-called "noble" Draconians who currently have lame names . . .

I'm hoping they keep Tieflings out of Krynn altogether, but I suspect they will include them.

 

[Dire Bare]

My only real concern is the paragraph that says something to the effect of: all 4E supplements are going to assume the current world axis cosmology as standard. I'm hoping they mean the generic supplements and not the campaign settings, because I still don't think it works right for Athas and Krynn.

Heh, heh . . . at this point I'd be happy just to see Dragonlance and/or Dark Sun back in print at all, regardless of the cosmology!!

I don't see Krynn having any problems with the World Axis. Use the 4e Abyss as is, and simply place the domains of all the evil gods there!! Switch abishai from immortals to elementals and you're good! Create some new astral domains for the good and neutral gods.

Athas, as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, was a bit schizophrenic and did not have a solid cosmology, it was retconned within the product line itself a couple of times. And to me, the only awkward parts are the Gray and the Black, but I have confidence the WotC designers will figure that one out . . . if we do get a Dark Sun campaign book that is!