Dragon Desciple expanded as a Core Class

[Erekose]

Take it as a guideline and fiddle as you see fit to make it work. I hope this helps. Im not the most coherent. And sorry it took so long but I've been down and out (on Chemo).

I'm really sorry to hear that you are roughing it at the moment. I don't want to pry but I hope it's only temporary.

Thanks for your help with the class.

To help picturing it, may be a couple of foundation stones from the campaign will help put it into perspective.

Like the new Conan RPG there are no non-human races, just different cultures.

Magic exists but is only sourced from powerful entities. Clerics gain their spells from gods and druids from the elder elemental gods. Wizards believe that they are harnessing (and so bringing a kind of order to) chaos - others would say they are the servants/slaves of chaos.

The sorcerers are the servants of the great dragon (or order/law) and are not entirely human but carry the blood of dragons.

[Bards, Paladins, and Rangers do not have spellcasting abilities. These abilities are replaced with others.]

In this context, the revised sorcerer class is almost a combination of class+race like demihumans were in orginal D&D. Although any culture can have sorcerers.

By becoming more powerful as sorcerers they become more like the dragon they are related to, which in itself is merely a shadow of the great dragon.

I like the layout you've given but have a few comments. Principally with regards to bonuses to ability scores. I can appreciate the logic of breaking them down to +1 rather than +2 but this goes against the general spirit of other ability bonuses open to players (like with race - I don't have Unearth Arcana so can't comment on its suggestions). This is a debatable point. However, if I rejig your assignment slightly to the following:

BAB = Medium
SAVES = Ref (Poor), Fort+Will (Good)
Hit Dice = D8
Skills = Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot.
Skill Points = 2+INT
Weapons = Simple
Armour = None
Spells = As Bard

[Having BAB Good, HD12, 4 Skill Points/level, Light, and Medium armour on top of the abilities and Bard spell progression seems excessive particularly compared to the standard Bard class]

1 Dragon sight (low-light vision)
2 Dragon claws and bite
3 Improved dragon sight (darkvision)
4 Natural Armour +1
5 ---
6 Immunity to sleep
7 Charisma +2
8 Dragon Breath (2d8)
9 Natural Armour +2
10 Strength +2
11 Blindsight 30'
12 Immunity to paralysis
13 Dragon breath (4d8)
14 Natural Armour +3,
15 Strength +4
16 Constitution +2
17 Blindsense 60', Intelligence +2
18 Immunity to breath weapon type
19 Wings, Natural Armour +4
20 Dragon Breath (Full Strength)

I still feel that the above is probably too powerful but I'm unsure of how to tone it down any more.

 

[Otterscrubber]

The DD is the bard of PrCs. It's not really good at anything in particular and it's not that good at the one thing it seems to be made for. I can only assume people who pick this class are going for melee ability, since it has no othe positive quality.

Even going with this as a melee class you sacrifice BAB and feats for what? A few ability boosts and .....drumroll......claws?! What's more they present this class in Tome and Blood, the splatbook for arcane casters, as if it is a viable route for a sorcerer to take. Sure, I'll give up 9th level spells for some.....oh yeah I almost forgot......claws?! Wow, I get a breath weapon that is weaker than most low level mage spells that i can use once per day as well? BONUS!!!!!!!

 

[Khaalis]

The DD is the bard of PrCs. It's not really good at anything in particular and it's not that good at the one thing it seems to be made for. Sure, I'll give up 9th level spells for some.....oh yeah I almost forgot......claws?! Wow, I get a breath weapon that is weaker than most low level mage spells that i can use once per day as well? BONUS!!!!!!!

I just want to say that on principle I Agree. The DD is one of the worst written PrC’s I have ever seen. More food to the fodder that the all toted WotC “game balance” doesn’t wash. What the ehll were they thinking when they wrote this? I think the only reason it exists is to allow a washed-out, lower effect version of the Half-Dragon template – basically a way to get around a “No HD Templates Allowed” ruling.

With that said…

I'm really sorry to hear that you are roughing it at the moment. I don't want to pry but I hope it's only temporary.

Thanks for the well wishes. It is something I am managing through. Treatments will hopefully only last 3 months. /shrug Life just sucks sometimes.

Thanks for your help with the class.
To help picturing it, may be a couple of foundation stones from the campaign will help put it into perspective.
Like the new Conan RPG there are no non-human races, just different cultures.
Magic exists but is only sourced from powerful entities. Clerics gain their spells from gods and druids from the elder elemental gods. Wizards believe that they are harnessing (and so bringing a kind of order to) chaos - others would say they are the servants/slaves of chaos.
The sorcerers are the servants of the great dragon (or order/law) and are not entirely human but carry the blood of dragons.
[Bards, Paladins, and Rangers do not have spellcasting abilities. These abilities are replaced with others.]
In this context, the revised sorcerer class is almost a combination of class+race like demihumans were in orginal D&D. Although any culture can have sorcerers.
By becoming more powerful as sorcerers they become more like the dragon they are related to, which in itself is merely a shadow of the great dragon.

If you could post some basics here I would love to see the changes. What is given instead of spellcasting for the Hybrids? What does the progression table look like for Sorcerer?

I like the layout you've given but have a few comments. Principally with regards to bonuses to ability scores. I can appreciate the logic of breaking them down to +1 rather than +2 but this goes against the general spirit of other ability bonuses open to players (like with race - I don't have Unearth Arcana so can't comment on its suggestions). This is a debatable point.

Yes I know Savage Species and races give you bonuses at a +2 so that you always net a +1 bonus from the increase. However, this is a class build not a race. Remember that in the class advancement table you get a Stat bonus every 4th level and it is only +1, not a racial +2.

In regards to the Campaign vision, you will have to decide is this a more melee focus than the core sorcerer? Exactly HOW much like the dragon do they become? For game balance and “theory”, making them more like clerics makes sense. Since they are gaining their power in a similar fasion. It sounds almost like these sorcerers are much like those found in Ed Greenwood’s “Band of Four” novels – known as the Serpent Priests. They worship the great serpent (the evil god in a trio of deities) and become physically like Yuan-ti or Nagas over time and power. What they do with magic is much more like sorcery though than “divine” magic.

So with that said, these look good.
BAB = Medium
SAVES = Ref (Poor), Fort+Will (Good)
Hit Dice = D8
Skills = Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot.
Skill Points = 2+INT
Weapons = Simple
Armour = None
Spells = As Bard

Here is the Gold Dragon Bloodline Progression from Unearthed Arcanan. This can give you a different viewpoint on how to do the bloodline. Again – it all depends on how much like a Dragon you wish to let them become. This bloodline is very different from a Half-Dragon. The way it works is that you gain the listed ability at the character level listed. Then at specified levels (example is by 12th on the minor) you must “burn” ECLs or be barred from further advancement in the bloodline and suffer a flat 20% XP penalty until you do burn the ECL.

Minor (LA +1)
4: +2 Sense Motive checks
8: Alertness
12: Strength +1
16: Resistance to Fire (5)
20: Gold Dragon Affinity +2*
*: Affinity gives +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Intimidate and Perform when interacting with your bloodline species.

Intermediate (LA +2)
2: +2 Sense Motive checks
4: Alertness
6: Strength +1
8: Resistance to Fire (5)
10: Gold Dragon Affinity +2
12: +1 Natural Armor
14: +2 Heal checks
16: Resistance to Fire (10)
18: Constitution +1
20: Water Breathing

Major (LA +3)
1: +2 Sense Motive checks
2: Alertness
3: Strength +1
4: Resistance to Fire (5)
5: Gold Dragon Affinity +2
6: +1 Natural Armor
7: +2 Heal checks
8: Resistance to Fire (10)
9: Constitution +1
10: Water Breathing
11: Gold Dragon Affinity +4
12: +1 Natural Armor
13: +2 Swim checks
14: Power Attack
15: Intelligence +1
16: Breath Weapon
17: Gold Dragon Affinity +6
18: +1 Natural Armor
19: +2 Jump checks
20: Immunity to Fire

[Having BAB Good, HD12, 4 Skill Points/level, Light, and Medium armour on top of the abilities and Bard spell progression seems excessive particularly compared to the standard Bard class]

Keep in mind you are developing a campaign specific class, not a core class. Yes it is a powerful class, but it is because you are turning a humanoid into a dragon. That’s pretty powerful. If I were going to do it, I would have to make the class an “Ex-Class”. If you ever multiclass out of the class – you are done.

As for your power progression: This is totally up to you and what you want the class to gain.

I still feel that the above is probably too powerful but I'm unsure of how to tone it down any more.

I would personally agree. I think it is too much like Half-Dragon, which is only ECL 3 to begin with. As I said earlier, you need to decide what you want them to become. What abilities do you want them to gain over time? I think all of these listed here is a bit extreme. If it were me, I would trim it down as follows.

1: Dragon sight (low-light vision & darkvision)
2: Dragon claws and bite
3: Strength +1
4: Resistance to Fire (5)
5: Immunity to sleep
6: +1 Natural Armor
7: Charisma +1
8: Resistance to Fire (10)
9: Constitution +1
10: Strength +1
11: Immunity to paralysis
12: +1 Natural Armor
13: Blindsense 30’
14: Charisma +1
15: Intelligence +1
16: Breath Weapon
17: Strength +1
18: +1 Natural Armor
19: Blindsense 60’
20: Immunity to Fire

Or to follow a more fighter progression…(since I’m not a big fan of humanoids gaining draconic breath weapons and wings)

1: Dragon sight (low-light vision & darkvision)
2: Dragon claws and bite
4: Resistance to Fire (5)
6: Constitution +2
8: Immunity to Sleep & Paralysis
10: Strength +2
12: +2 Natural Armor
14: Charisma +2
16: Resistance to Fire (10)
18: Intelligence +2
20: Blindsense 60’

This mixed with Bard spells makes for a fairly decent class. Its still probably more appropriate to a PrC but that’s just my personal taste. I personally am not a big fan of a 20 level “racial” class per-say.

Hope that at least gives you some ideas to work with.

 

[Erekose]

This is a relatively quick post as I am at work . . .

Thanks for the well wishes. It is something I am managing through. Treatments will hopefully only last 3 months. /shrug Life just sucks sometimes.

Glad to hear that the treatmeant is relatively short term. I hope that turns out to be the case.

In regards to the Campaign vision, you will have to decide is this a more melee focus than the core sorcerer? Exactly HOW much like the dragon do they become?

While I’m happy to limit spell progression to the Bard table, the sorcerer should still be more spellcaster than fighter.

For game balance and “theory”, making them more like clerics makes sense. Since they are gaining their power in a similar fasion. It sounds almost like these sorcerers are much like those found in Ed Greenwood’s “Band of Four” novels – known as the Serpent Priests. They worship the great serpent (the evil god in a trio of deities) and become physically like Yuan-ti or Nagas over time and power. What they do with magic is much more like sorcery though than “divine” magic.

While not the same, the concept does sound quite similar.

I would have to make the class an “Ex-Class”. If you ever multiclass out of the class – you are done.

I agree - this a class for the dedicated!

Hope that at least gives you some ideas to work with.

It certainly has. Thank you for going to the effort of thinking so much about this.

It’s very interesting that this whole discussion has made me realise that while I want the draconic heritage to come to the fore as the sorcerer increases in class. The more visual changes – presumably bite and claws, wings, etc. should either be very late in the progression or not at all.

Also, along this line, may be the changes to the mental attributes should occur before the physical ones – since again the increased muscle bulk, natural armour, etc. would imply obvious physical changes.

With at least some of this in mind, let's take another look at some minor tweaking of the level advancement table you've provided (all else staying the same from BAB, SAVES, etc. list).

1: Low-light vision, darkvision
2: Immunity to sleep
3: Strength +1
4: Resistance to elements 5
5: Charisma +1
6: Natural armour +1
7: Intelligence +1
8: Resistance to elements 10
9: Constitution +1
10: Strength +2
11: Immunity to paralysis
12: Natural armour +2
13: Blindsense 30’
14: Charisma +2
15: Intelligence +2
16: Breath Weapon
17: Constitution +2
18: Natural Armour +3
19: Blindsense 60’
20: Immunity to elements

[Note: for “elements” read whichever elemental attack is closest to the dragon lineage breath weapon.]

Giving the above abilities the right names, e.g. dragon sight for low-light vision and darkvision will be key to capturing the flavour of the class.

Also, I've left breath weapon as you had it - was this full strength, half-strength? It could be quite powerful and yet not unbalanced compared to the spells that are being given up at 16th level from the core sorcerer.

 

[Khaalis]

This is a relatively quick post as I am at work . . .
Glad to hear that the treatmeant is relatively short term. I hope that turns out to be the case.

Myself as well. I work the graveyard shift here to give accessability to our European customers.
And again, thank you for the concerned comments. It is rough but I will manage.

While I’m happy to limit spell progression to the Bard table, the sorcerer should still be more spellcaster than fighter.

If you want them to be more like a sorcerer and less "dragon" but not quite as weak as the bard, here is another option.

From the Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana)...
HD: d8
BAB: Intermediate
Saves: Will Good
Weapons & Armor: All Simple + one light or one-handed martial weapon of choice. Light armor but no shields. Battle sorcerers do NOT suffer arcane spell failure while in light armor.
Spells: Subtract one spell per day from each spell level to a minimum of 0. (ie; At 1st 4-0/2-1 plus Charisma bonus.)
Subtract one spell known per spell level once they reach more than one known. For example a 4th level battle sorcerer knows 5-0 and 2-1st and 1-2nd. When reaching 5th, they learn one additional 1st but no 2nd.

It certainly has. Thank you for going to the effort of thinking so much about this.

No problem. I enjoy this if you couldnt tell.

It’s very interesting that this whole discussion has made me realise that while I want the draconic heritage to come to the fore as the sorcerer increases in class. The more visual changes – presumably bite and claws, wings, etc. should either be very late in the progression or not at all.

Also, along this line, may be the changes to the mental attributes should occur before the physical ones – since again the increased muscle bulk, natural armour, etc. would imply obvious physical changes.

Ok. Semi-devil's advocate here. I do agree on the "metamorphosis" as I am not a big fan of it. However, it could come later on. Though keep in mind as "Otterscrubber" commented. People are not going to see the Claws/Bite as a worthy incentive for high level gain. If you use the Battle Sorcerer spells rule then it might be worth it as a small boon on top of the spells.

Now as for attributes. Keep in mind strong doesnt mean BIG. You dont have to put on bulk to become strong, especially if it is in small increments. Look at gymnasts. Tone is more prevalent than bulk. Also keep in mind the body is much easier to change than the mind. I think the physically attributes should start earliest. Health then Strength. Personality is easier to change than Intellect so Charisma should change before Intelligence. Knowledge comes with time. Thus I swapped a few - see what you think.

1: Dragonic Vision
2: Immunity to sleep
3: Constitution +1
4: Resistance to elements 5
5: Strength +1
6: Natural armour +1
7: Charisma +1
8: Resistance to elements 10
9: Intelligence +1
10: Constitution +2
11: Immunity to paralysis (& fear?)
12: Natural armour +2
13: Blindsense 30’
14: Charisma +2
15: Intelligence +2
16: Breath Weapon
17: Strength +2
18: Natural Armour +3
19: Blindsense 60’
20: Immunity to elements

Draconic Vision (Ex): The sorcerer gains low-light vision and darkvision 60'.

Also, I've left breath weapon as you had it - was this full strength, half-strength? It could be quite powerful and yet not unbalanced compared to the spells that are being given up at 16th level from the core sorcerer.

As I am not a huge fan of breath weapon on humanoids so I'm not a good one to ask, so it is really totally up to how powerful you want it to be. I dont have the books handy but you might want to compare the DD's breath to the Half-Dragon's. Take whichever ou like better?

Hope that helps.

 

[Erekose]

As a slightly different take on this - I've recently seen posted the dragonblooded human from d20 Modern which may be an easier basis for the dragonblooded sorcerer.

BAB - As Sorcerer
Fort + Will - Good
Ref - Poor

Skill points and skill selection - sorcerer

All simple weapons, light armour and shields (except Tower shields) - no arcane check penalty fo light armour like the Bard.

Spells per day and spells known - as Bard

Ability benefits allocated based on Bard progression.

1. Dragon sight, natural weapons
2. -
3. Dragon health +2
4. -
5. -
6. - Resist sleep
7. -
8. Improved dragon sight
9. Dragon might +2
10. -
11. -
12. Resist paralysation
13. -
14. Greater dragon sight 30’
15. Dragon power +2
16. -
17. -
18. Dragon might +4
19. -
20. Greater dragon sight 60’

Dragon Blood: Sorcerers carry the blood of dragons in their veins. As they become more powerful in the arcane arts some of the untapped potency of their draconic heritage is unleashed.

Dragon Sight (Ex): Low-light vision plus a +2 bonus to spot checks.

Natural Weapons (Ex): Sorcerers may use their sharp claws (1d4) or bite (1d6) to deal lethal (slashing) damage instead of nonlethal damage with an unarmed attack. Attacks made with natural weapons do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Dragon Health (Ex): +2 Constitution.

Resist Sleep (Ex): +4 bonus on saves against sleep.

Improved Dragon Sight (Ex): darkvision.

Dragon Might (Ex): +2 Strength, at 18th level this bonus increases to +4.

Resist Paralysation (Ex): +4 bonus on saves against paralysation.

Dragon Power (Ex): +2 Charisma and a +2 bonus to intimidate checks.

Greater Dragon Sight (Ex): blindsense 30’, at 20th level, the range of this ability increases to 60 feet.