D&D 3E/3.5 Dragon Disciple 3.5 Analysis

[Jack Simth]

The same maneuvers that benefit from strength also benefit from BAB.

With the exceptions of iterative attacks, ranged stuff, and two-weapon Power Attack, all combat manuvers that benefit from an increased BAB benefit from an extra point of STR bonus as much if not more - a bull rush has no attack roll (for the rusher) and ends in a contest of Str; a charge is a standard attack roll at the end, which benefits both on to-hit and damage from a high Str, while BAB only increases the to-hit; a Disarm is an opposed attack roll, which benefits equally from Increased Str as increased BAB; a feint is bluff vs. sense motive, benefiting from neither; most grapple checks benefit equally from BAB as from Str bonus; Ovverrun benefits from BAB not at all, but does from Str; Sundering is an opposed attack roll (str applies as well as BAB for that portion) but the damage increase from an increased Str is not readily matched by a BAB increase; a trip attempt is a meelee touch attack followed by a Str vs. (Dex/Str) opposed check - BAB helps with the first, while Str helps with both.

 

[Thanee]

The same maneuvers that benefit from strength also benefit from BAB.

No, that is wrong.

Try tripping with BAB 20 and Str 10 against Tripping with BAB 10 and Str 30. You'll notice a difference!

Nonmagical flight of 30 is very non maneuvarable. It MIGHT be useful once in a while, but in combat most high level characters will want better.

It's not much, yeah. But it is something.

I did indeed miss natural armour and that should count for something, but I'm not sure what.

How about 3 feats? That's what it costs in the rules to get +3 AC.

Natural attacks. Well that small attack is only semi useful, but I'm sure that in some sunderhappy campaigns it would make the PrC more powerful.

More useful than any attack at -15 BAB.

Of all the spells listed there only shield is usable as a rule. The rest of them are either irrelevant, or better done with a cheap cheap cheap magic item.

Like Wraithstrike?

(EDIT: Ah, you meant only the 1st level spells, right? But still, if you look at the Dragon Disciple, you should also look at least at some arcane spells, because they are also (albeit weak) spellcasters).

So tell me what you think is the best core blend for the DD? And can you find any that work for non humans? (That knowledge arcana hurts skill when it's cross class)

You can pick up a few levels with your required spellcaster level(s).

Bye
Thanee

 

[nimisgod]

I would like to reiterate one point that Thanee mentioned: Wraithstrike It's an awesome arcane Gish spell.

 

[Diirk]

Bard 4/Barbarian 1... -7 hp compared to a 5th level fighter, but can cast 2nd level spells with no ASF, and you get some niceties such as Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Heroism, Cure Light/Moderate Wounds, Alter Self, Blur... you also get a 40' movement (helps with the flight too) and rage 1/day from the 1 barb level. 4 BAB for 5 levels.

Or Bard 1/Barbarian 4.. more hp, only cantrips. Honestly I don't think the tradeoff is worth it

Bard 1/Fighter 4... less mobility, gets weapon spec which is overall better than rage probably.

I tend to like the first option.
A bard 4/barb 1/DD 10 has 11 BAB at 15th level, which isn't great, but when you factor in the +8 str you actually have the same to hit and number of attacks as a 15th fighter (ignoring greater weapon focus). You do get that iterative attack later, but you get natural attacks to make up for it.

Base saves are 10, 7, 11 as compare to a 15 fighter's 9, 5, 5.

HP are 6 + 3x3.5 + 6.5 + 10x 6.5 = 88 average HP (then +15 for +2 con) compared to our fighter's 10 + 14x5.5 = 87 average hp.

Then there's the DD special abilities.

Ok so 6 feats to make up the difference. 1 goes into improved toughness, then the 2 chars are at basically the same HP. It takes 2 feats to make up for the +4 damage/hit the DD gets (weapon spec + GWS). Thats assuming 1handers. For 2handers, the fighter can't entirely make up the difference. It would take 5 feats to make up the differences in saves, assuming Iron Will etc all stacked, which they don't. Then blindsense, flight etc you can't really take feats for. So overall, I'd give this build a big thumbs up.. it looks better than an equivalent level fighter to me.

 

[pbd]

so you are saying that balance is completely unimportant?

After all, it can both 'be cool' and 'be balanced'. If we only have one of the two why not try to get the other as well?

I agree, balance is important; and most core classes are decently balanced. It is the microscopic analysis with the sole purpose of getting every possible bit of benefit out of class combinations, while avaoiding all drawbacks, that gets to me (I'm probably guilty somewhat too). It just seems too clinical, but I guess I am just spouting, sorry.

 

[werk]

If you want to throw in 4 levels of Sorceror I can of course recalculate... but it does get less favourable

This is why I'm using battle sorcerer instead of vanilla sorcerer, d8HD, rogue BAB, less spells, but that will be made up from DD. But I'm trying to leverage the casting to supplement the fighting...I'm not the primary fighter in the group

I think by comparing DD to dragons/half-dragons you are comparing apples to pears. They are similar, but just not the same thing. pros/cons.

 

[Scion]

I agree, balance is important; and most core classes are decently balanced. It is the microscopic analysis with the sole purpose of getting every possible bit of benefit out of class combinations, while avaoiding all drawbacks, that gets to me (I'm probably guilty somewhat too). It just seems too clinical, but I guess I am just spouting, sorry.

To me this forum is all about being as clinical and technical as possible in order to get everything right and to show problems.

After all, we can add flavor later if it is needed (because we took too much flavor out somehow) but it is hard to add balance later without upsetting people.

Best to worry about balance ahead of time and in the last part polish it up, imo of course

 

[Merlion]

I've always found the Dragon Disciple to be extremely bizzare. Its a prestige class that require spellcasting to get in, and is based on or around a magical transformation into a magical creature, and yet gives almost no useful benefits for spellcasters.

And if one wants to use it to augment a melee character...it seems to me like there are easier and more effective ways. And if one wants to do a caster/melee hybrid a class like Spellsword, Bladesinger, or even Eldrich Knight would probably be better.


Now concept wise the idea of becoming part dragon is very interesting...but the class gives so little thats really directly useful to any class....I think this is a type of prestige class that really needs seperate martial and magical versions..

 

[ARandomGod]

Some stuff you have not figured in, I think...

Strength also gives bonuses to many combat maneuvers (bull rush, grapple, trip, etc).
You can only learn Improved Toughness once.
Nonmagical Flight
Natural Armor
Natural Weapons (secondary attacks, always armed)

Bye
Thanee

Natural Weapons. IMO that cinches the deal right there. Claw/Claw/Bite. Get a monks's belt or armor spikes or some weapon that doesn't require the use of hands, and you've got three extra attacks right there at the end of your BAB based attacks! All at only 5 less than full BAB (and at only 0.5 strength bonus to damage, but still).

Personally I like to pick up the Benign Transposition spell from Miniatures Handbook. (Close, two willing targets switch places). Combine that with a small familiar and you can get into unusual places. And nothing get's the pary mage out of a grapple better than switching places with him! And now that the surprised enemy is holding an enraged Dragon Disciple (or just an angry one if you don't have a level of Barb), those natural attacks are going to look pretty frightening to him!

Claw/Claw/Bite.

Actually, I throw this in on a non-human PC who has a natural slam attack, and you've got Slam/Bite/Claw/Claw. At only -5 to hit you've got a respectable addition to your normall attacks (although, once again, to pull off all those you'll have to have a weapon like monk/s belt, monk levels, or armor spikes... which will, I point out, work even better in that surprise grapple)

My recommended second first level spell is the simple True Strike. Combines very well with Power Attack.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I like starting with Hexblade when going DD. +1BA/lv. Mettle, Chr to saves vs spells and SLA, Hexblade curse. Limits your options for spells, but they do get some useful combat oriented ones.