Dragon Disciple vs. 1/2 dragon?

[Nifft]

My favorite is Paladin 4 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple X. Your two Sorcerer spells known are true strike and feather fall (which have no ASF), and you add your bonus spell slots to Paladin 1 (because Paladin spells are pretty good -- like lesser restoration and bless weapon).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Korak]

By that logic, a human half-celestial [type Outsider (Augmented Humanoid)] could be enlarged, but her son, an aasimar [type Outsider (native)], couldn't.

[A human with the half-dragon template but not the DD PrC would still be a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid).]

Yes, the implications you stated do follow from my logic.

I haven't seen any rules or rulings that I can recall on the subject (although my memory is certainly not infallible, nor my readings perfectly comprehensive), but my group had always played that subtypes were valid for the purpose of determining if a creature is a legal target for a spell. If that is not the case, can you please direct me to the rules source that says otherwise.

 

[Klaus]

That's because it's actually two races combined into one progression. But I see your point, and I agree.

 

[Blue]

One additional point is max ranks of skills - the +3 LA template doesn't advance that, while the class does. For some, this is important.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[saucercrab]

Yes, the implications you stated do follow from my logic.

I haven't seen any rules or rulings that I can recall on the subject (although my memory is certainly not infallible, nor my readings perfectly comprehensive), but my group had always played that subtypes were valid for the purpose of determining if a creature is a legal target for a spell. If that is not the case, can you please direct me to the rules source that says otherwise.

Well it doesn't directly, literally state it either way (that I know of), so what sounds more logical? A half-humanoid creature can be affected by a spell aimed at humanoids, but its more-than-half-humanoid offspring can't?

If you want to disregard that, then:

• Certain spells I'm thinking of that are applicable (enlarge person, charm person/charm monster, dominate animal/dominate person/dominate monster) mention creatures by type, not subtype.
• A wizard's familiar is (if using an animal as the base creature) a Magic Beast (Augmented Animal). PHB, page 52, Familiars sidebar, first paragraph, third-to-last sentence:
  "... but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on type."
• MM, page 296, Creating the Monster section, Creature Type heading, first paragraph, last sentence:
  "A creature's type determines the size of its HD & how magic affects the creature; for example, the hold animal spell affects only creatures of the animal type."
  The Subtype heading lacks any text concerning spell eligibility.

AFAICT, signs point to "no, (the augmented subtype doesn't count as type)."

 

[Nifft]

Well it doesn't directly, literally state it either way (that I know of), so what sounds more logical? A half-humanoid creature can be affected by a spell aimed at humanoids, but its more-than-half-humanoid offspring can't?

You keep your logic out of my delicious planar fantasy game!

Here's how I'd justify it, if it ever came up (which it won't, because IMC Aasimar and Tiefling are templates just like Half-Celestial):
- Half-Celestials are born on Earth. They partake of the planar essence of the Prime.
- Aasimar and Tieflings are from Sigil. They are alien to the Prime in a more fundamental way -- even if their blood is more human, their souls are more Outsider.
- Aasimar and Tieflings from Earth? Who said those exist?!?

But that's really just hand-waving.

Cheers, -- N

 

[saucercrab]

You keep your logic out of my delicious planar fantasy game!

Sorry, my logic is taking what I think are quite understandable steps.

Here's how I'd justify it, if it ever came up (which it won't, because IMC Aasimar and Tiefling are templates just like Half-Celestial):
- Half-Celestials are born on Earth. They partake of the planar essence of the Prime.
- Aasimar and Tieflings are from Sigil. They are alien to the Prime in a more fundamental way -- even if their blood is more human, their souls are more Outsider.
- Aasimar and Tieflings from Earth? Who said those exist?!?

But that's really just hand-waving.

Cheers, -- N

I take it the Native subtype is a bit altered for you as well?

 

[Nifft]

I take it the Native subtype is a bit altered for you as well?

Yup.

[houserules]
IMC, where you first draw breath is the origin of your soul. So if you're an Outsider born on the Prime, you have the (Native) subtype. You also have free will (!!!) in a way that most "aligned" Outsiders do not.

Thus Pazuzu, the Prince of Evil Air, is quite a strong cosmic player.
[/houserules]

Cheers, -- N