Dragon Disciple with caster levels?

[crazy_monkey1956]

Not sure if this should be here or in House Rules, but here goes...

First some campaign background: In my homebrew campaign, there no gods and no outer planes...yet. Mortal beings (such as the PCs and their nemeses) can petition beings known as the elder dragons to achieve godhood. The best bet to get their attention is to be part dragon, either by birth, or through becoming a dragon disciple.

So, I've changed the Dragon Disciple class slightly to make it more appealing by changing the bonus spells to caster level add-ons to spontaneous arcane casting.

Are there balance issues I'm missing with this change? Is there something else I could do or in addition to this?

Thanks in advance.

Quentin

 

[moritheil]

Not sure if this should be here or in House Rules, but here goes...

First some campaign background: In my homebrew campaign, there no gods and no outer planes...yet. Mortal beings (such as the PCs and their nemeses) can petition beings known as the elder dragons to achieve godhood. The best bet to get their attention is to be part dragon, either by birth, or through becoming a dragon disciple.

So, I've changed the Dragon Disciple class slightly to make it more appealing by changing the bonus spells to caster level add-ons to spontaneous arcane casting.

Are there balance issues I'm missing with this change? Is there something else I could do or in addition to this?

Thanks in advance.

Quentin

Not really. Conventional wisdom is that Dragon Disciple sucks for casters. This just makes it suck somewhat less.

 

[Darklone]

I'd arrange the lost caster levels a little bit different though.

 

[szilard]

Take a high level sorcerer. Offer them this exchange:

Lose three caster levels

and get:

- ten of your levels converted from poor BAB and Fort save to medium BAB and good Fort save.
- ten of your HD switched from d4s to d12s
- a better skill list for 10 levels
- +4 natural armor
- +8 Strength, +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Cha
- wings (flight)
- natural weapons
- blindsense, lowlight vision, 60 darkvision, immunity to an energy type, sleep, and paralysis
- a breath weapon

Would anyone not opt for this, power-wise?

Maybe someone really set on 9th level spells. I guess.

It seems like too good a bargain to me, though.

-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

Take a high level sorcerer. Offer them this exchange:

Lose three caster levels

and get:

- ten of your levels converted from poor BAB and Fort save to medium BAB and good Fort save.
- ten of your HD switched from d4s to d12s
- a better skill list for 10 levels
- +4 natural armor
- +8 Strength, +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Cha
- wings (flight)
- natural weapons
- blindsense, lowlight vision, 60 darkvision, immunity to an energy type, sleep, and paralysis
- a breath weapon

Would anyone not opt for this, power-wise?

Maybe someone really set on 9th level spells. I guess.

It seems like too good a bargain to me, though.

-Stuart

I beg your pardon. I thought he was advancing caster level, not actual casting.

 

[pawsplay]

This looks like a job for a new PrC.

It is worth noting that dragons are actually not great casters for their HD, it would be strange if DD was not the same.

 

[IanB]

If we accept that the given LA for the half-dragon template is accurate (+3) then I'm not sure 7 levels of caster progression is terribly overdone.

Compare a level 17 half dragon sorcerer to a level 10/10 sorcerer/dragon disciple with the change.

The DD is stronger in the hp department (10d4+10d12 vs 17d6) and in the saves department, and they're equal on casting ability. The half-dragon doesn't get flight (assuming a medium creature.) It is also missing blindsense.

So the DD build is stronger, but it isn't totally clear to me that it is so much stronger as to be out of line with other classes. After all, by going this route you're still giving up the ability to cast 9th level spells pre-epic levels, and you've cut down your available 8th level spells by one as well.

I think I would probably be OK with it, with the caveat that I would change the levels at which you have to give up spellcasting progression to levels 1, 4, and 7, to push the payoff back a little bit.

It is also worth asking if it becomes broken with non-core spontaneous casters like the warmage, I don't know the answer to that one.

 

[pawsplay]

My gut says it should be at least one more caster level. Making it half caster progression would be cute.

 

[Darklone]

Agreed, either half caster level progression or full spellcaster level progression.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

To clarify, I have made it full spellcasting, similar to the loremaster. So, every level of dragon disciple except the "breath weapon" levels grant an additional level of spellcasting progression to a spontaneous arcane class. Since I use only core plus Savage Species, tidbits from Unearthed Arcana, Monster Manual II, and Libris Mortis, the question of other spontaneous casters hasn't come up in the campaign, and won't for the foreseeable future.

I have several NPCs taking this path, due to the whole aspiring god plotline, and thus far I've noticed that they do tend to outshine natural born half-dragons (but that isn't a problem for me), and, for warrior types that dipped into sorcerer just to qualify for the class, it gives them extra spell casting capability that makes them more interesting.

Quentin