Dragon Encounter for low level pc's

[Sitara]

All this 4e playtesting reports baout low level dragon fights have made me itch to toss one at my players as well. I have 5 players in an expedition to undermountain game. All will be level 3 or so when they take on what I hope to be a red dragon.

Any tips on how to do this without a TPK? Is this even possible? If so what size should it be?

Any help on this is appreciated. (note I am ok with some pc casualties, but I would like to avoid a TPK. I want this to be a memorable encounter!)

 

[darthkilmor]

All this 4e playtesting reports baout low level dragon fights have made me itch to toss one at my players as well. I have 5 players in an expedition to undermountain game. All will be level 3 or so when they take on what I hope to be a red dragon.

Any tips on how to do this without a TPK? Is this even possible? If so what size should it be?

Any help on this is appreciated. (note I am ok with some pc casualties, but I would like to avoid a TPK. I want this to be a memorable encounter!)

A wyrmling is only CR 4, so says the SRD. they should be able to handle that. Maybe . You could always have to run away if less than 20 or 30 HP, and have them encounter it again a few levels later.

 

[evilbob]

In my experience, dragons are always formidable foes, but they have one key limiting factor: the PCs usually know what they are about to face. If the PCs are unprepared and meet a dragon in its own lair, you can probably add at least two to the EL of even a CR 4 dragon. If they are given appropriate hints and figure it out and go in prepared - or better yet, catch the dragon by surprise - then a CR 4 beastie should be exactly what you're looking for: somewhat tough, but not unsurmountable.

Examining the situation: a wyrmling red dragon still has 5 attacks and a 2d8 breath weapon that the PCs will likely have a 50% or worse chance to reflex, so it has a good chance to drop a PC on a full attack or hurt all of them pretty well every 1d4 rounds. (Only a rogue has a good chance against the breath weapon.) Additionally, with only 1st level spells, there's not a lot of prep you can really do. So it should certainly be hard for the PCs to chew through its 59 HP. Then again, if the PCs know what to expect and take some precautions and are careful to fight it at full strength (you might even throw them a scroll of resist energy if you're worried), they should make it. A good crit roll from a two-handed, high-strength character even has the potential to take it effectively out of the battle.

I would second the idea that once the dragon gets below 50% or maybe even 25% of its HP, it flees - mostly to set them up for a later encounter with "mom" or something along those lines. Or, if the PCs are doing well, let it fight to the death - there's nothing like a couple dragon teeth for a good trophy.

 

[Animal]

Don't forget that dragon's colour plays a great role here. for example, while red dragon wyrmlings are medium size, white dragon wyrmlings are tiny. thus they have no wing attacks and their claws have 0 ft. reach, which effectively leaves them with just one bite attack. an easy shot for a 3 level party.

 

[Sitara]

Well I was browsing hte SRD, and htinking either a juvinile red dragon, or a young adult white dragon (their BW is really weak, esp when compared to the reds)
only problem there is that young adults have DR 5/magic; none of my pc's have agic weapons. (low magic game). I guess either I could remove that ability of the dragon, or just go with it and hope the pc's memorized magic weapon, etc type spells and use power attack to goo affect. A couple B09S [pc's also helps ofdcourse. (those warblades are killing machines I tell ya)

Also, cananyone give m a good reason for a spellcasting (1st level) dragon NOT to cast mage armor on itself before it does anything else?

 

[evilbob]

Well I was browsing hte SRD, and htinking either a juvinile red dragon, or a young adult white dragon

Ah. Yes, those will kill the PCs. TPK. 100% chance in a fair fight, probably still > 95% if the odds are stacked heavily against the dragon; likely nothing short of DM intervention could save the PCs.

A juvenile red dragon is a CR 10. It should easily be able to kill all of them in one breath attack. I don't even know if they'd get XP for killing it; it's so far above their level it would be expected to be impossible without so much help that they don't really deserve XP.

A young adult white is a CR 8. Even that has 6 attacks and will drop any of your PCs on a full attack; its breath weapon could easily take out casters. And they will never kill it; 142 HP with DR 5/magic and no magic weapons? They're toast.

You might want to revisit the DMG's guidelines on encounters; they're not rules, but they can give you a good estimate on what is appropriate. Sometimes a heavy challenge is good, but these two challenges are probably guarenteed TPKs without you doing some serious intervention on the PCs' side.

 

[Sitara]

I'm quite well versed in rule; thing is I haven't sent a dragon vs the pc's EVER when I run a game. My games are usually low magic, with more humanish opponents (with heroic classes/npc classes) rather than monsters. I also usually play other rpg's (starwars, wfrp, conand20, ironheroes, qin, l5r, etc)

Anyhow, thanks for the tip. I must have misread theentires; perhaps I should wait till the pc's are 5th level, and go with a very young white dragon then?

 

[avr]

There's always the solution in Tolkein's The Hobbit; see huge red dragon approaching, duck into secret passage. Dragon as plot device.

If you want a fight, a wyvern might be doable. Just make sure that they have some way of dealing with the poison secondary save.

 

[frankthedm]

Additionally, with only 1st level spells, there's not a lot of prep you can really do.

3rd level PCs have second level spells.

Very young red dragon is large , but still CR5, so it should fit the bill for a hard fight where someone might die. The party WILL need to use up some expendable items, so see to it they had a way to get them. Don’t just hand them out in the dungeon, but something more subtle, like a shopkeep mentioning he has a few potions for sale while in town.

The breath will be about 22 damage per hit, that is enough to damage stone. So don’t be shy about describing slightly melted walls and floors wherever the dragon used it’s breath attack. it will let the players see just what they need to prepare for and give them an idea how far apart they need to be.

Anyhow, thanks for the tip. I must have misread theentires; perhaps I should wait till the pc's are 5th level, and go with a very young white dragon then?

The reds are fine. Fighting a white dragon at low level is demeaning, not memorable. An adventuring party having thier ass handed to them by something the size of a cat or dog is shameful and even if they win, the will feel more like babykillers than dragonslayers. Even though a Large red IS quite young, it won't feel as bad because it is notably bigger than them.

"Party level" CR = Fight where PCs are rigged to win with no casuaties.

 

[evilbob]

3rd level PCs have second level spells.

Oops - thanks.

I also agree with what frankthedm said. I still think good "hints" are the key to a dragon fight if you want the PCs to make it.