Dragon intrigue without magic possible?

[Derren]

I am currently involved in quite a debate on the 4E board about how and if dragons are able to be "big players" in the world without having magic.
I think they are not but many people think otherwise, so instead of having an endless discussion without result I instead simply want to hear some examples of how this is possible.

Rules:

• The dragon does not have innate magic or spell like abilities. Just his claws and breath weapon. Eventual minions are allowed to use magic.
• The dragon is allowed to use magic items (not custom made), but the amount of magic items should be kept to a minimum (PC loot).
• Assume that dragons in this world have no inherent alignment.
• The dragon must be an antagonist for good aligned PCs.
• The target is a "normal" human kingdom with nobles etc.
• Either use a Adult, Old or Ancient red dragon (Say in your post which one. The older the dragon the more extensive its intrigue must be).
• The dragon should at least be able to influence the ruler of a big city. Leaders of powerful guilds, nobles or even kings is preferred (and for the ancient dragon required).
• The Dragon is the BBEG, not the minions. So the minions should not be collectively be much more powerful than the dragon. (If the minions can put together a 4 man adventurer party which can kill the dragon I consider this as too powerful).
• The dragon has enemies. Expect adventurers to attack from time to time. Explain how the dragon defends itself (also include tactics like Scry&Fry or bypassing the dragons defenses and CdGing the sleeping dragon)
• !Important to me! The dragon does not live in a void. Explain where eventual minions live and where they get their food and resources from. Explain how the dragon keeps contact with his agents and people he blackmails. When the dragon uses charged magic items explain where he gets new ones.
• The world is not static. Other political NPCs and maybe even the PCs have also political ambitions. Explain how the dragon can stay ahead of them (especially when those (N)PCs use magic for communication etc.)

I don't think that under these circumstances the dragon is able to put up a working political intrigue. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.

Edit:
3.5 rules. Stay core if possible but it is not required. (Expect that the enemies of the dragon use the same books as he does).
The check if the minions can put together an adventuring party to slay the dragon is just my arbitrary check to test if the dragon is still "running the show" and not the dragon. Its far from perfect but at least a guideline. You are encouraged to use common sense for this. Several 20 level caster serving a CR 16 dragon is a little unrealistic.
Also, take into account how long it takes for a message from the dragon to travel to one of his agents or victims and how long it takes for the answer to come back.

 

[Whisper72]

Well, you base everyhting on pretty much 'physical power' if you will.

The Dragon being far older and wizer then most has 'seen it all before', and shoudl therefore be much better at divining the aims and ambitions of others. The dragon is therefore much better at playing rivals off against eachother.

Dragons over time have gathered large hoards, money is power, so there is one source. Fruthermore, with the long horizon, the Dragon can lay plots that come to fruition much later, while most (especially humans) want to see result in their own lifetimes.

I do not understand the idea that the collective minions cannot be more powerful then the BBEG/dragon itself. I mean, surely the soldiery of an empire together are more powerful then the emperor?

Even if the various lieutenants together are much more powerful then the dragon itself, this does not need be a problem. Especially if they are all evil, the dragon will constantly 'divide and concquer', playing his own people against eachother to keep them from joining forces and gang up. Furthermore, the dragon may keep secrets to itself (for example, the place where his hoard is) such that the minions will not be succesful if they kill the dragon.

Not knowning 4E rules, it is hard to make concrete examples.

As to dragons not having access to magic is nonsense. It is simply a matter of co-opting and using a magic using ally. Maybe keep a friendly sorcerer/mage on hand in exchange for information (the long-lived dragon should know things most others do not, for example about historical events). Another way would be to kidnap friends/family of some sorceror/mage and make the magic user do stuff for the dragon.

If the shape shifting power remains in 4E, then this is a powerful way to remain hidden and retain contact with minions. A simple hat of disguise or similar magic can ensure that the dragon continuously has another appearance, and so different minions do not know who the 'real dragon' is.

Plenty stuff really...

 

[Derren]

The collective minions can be stronger than the dragon, they just should not be able to put together an adventuring party capable of slaying the dragon. They don't even have to do that but this is my arbitrary check that the dragon is still the big BBEG encounter for the PCs and not the minions.

The dragons allies and minions are allowed to have magic, but the dragon itself can't cast any form of magic (including alter self) . He can just use magical items (same restrictions as PCs if that somehow is important).

And you should use 3.5 rules (as too little is known of 4E).

 

[Snowy]

I'll make a vague stab at one.

CR of dragon, whatever suits, adjust to match level of minions and level of city, no idea what concept you have for levels of people in cities in your campaign.

Dragon lairs in abandoned elf halls on the top of a mountain, he has a flock/group/coterie of gargoyles that roost on the cliffs leading to his lair who venerate him as the saviour of their flock/group/coterie from another monster (in my game probably an evil society of elves). The Dragon butchered all of these by tooth and claw while they tried unsuccessfully to shoot him down with spells and arrows but they couldn't pass his tough skin and high resistances.

The gargoyles will defend him while he sleeps and his lair while he savages his enemies.

Further down the hillside are dangerous monsters that either don't fly or are wary of the dragon.

There are several tribes of humanoids and bandits who pay tribute to the dragon in exchange for his patronage, under his wing as it were.

From these several messengers, spies and such have been chosen who carry the dragons messages to the local city state, where rich nobles and merchants co-operate in exchange for not having their caravans and country houses burnt to the ground (stick) or for having their opponents caravans and country houses burnt to the ground (carrot).

Over time (can't remember how long dragons live 100 - 200 years?) the dragon has pushed the most supportive noble house into line for the kingdom, and now the king operates the kingdom on the dragons "advice" always knowing that the dragon can cripple trade and the armies if it chose to.

for larger dragons, id progress the scheme, ultimate would probably be a plane ruled by an elder ancient extra sprinkles Dragon overlord, with all the empires under him ruled by eternal draconic champions (smaller dragons, of half dragons) in turn holding their own cities to the Rule of Fire. Dissent would be hunted out and protesters would be sacrificed by quislings and turncoats amongst the humans eager to earn favor or avoid retribution.

oh yeah scry and fry, whatever I decided for this campaign that made this a less than desirable tactic, that doesn't really depend on just dragons magic though, favourites are mundane defenses ( in fact the lair above should probably be a dormant volcano, then by RAW the teleport wont work and adds the possibility of lava tunnels. ) the teleport portals idea also is good. I have one where teleport takes you to certain points in the world where its particularly close to the astral plane, basic teleport takes you to the closest, more advanced spells allow you to chose which one you arrive at.

I may have missed bits, I think I have my next campaign idea though! excellent!

 

[S'mon]

The dragon in the movie 'Dragonslayer' is a perfect model of how I see a powerful dragon working. He dominates the kingdom through terror; never mind spellcasting, he doesn't even need to speak to bend the puny mortals to his will!

 

[Set]

Watch any episode of the Sopranos. Imagine now that whoever the sleazy backroom negotiator is doesn't have a thug with a crowbar, but *does* have the ability to breath a cone of fire (lightning, acid, whatever) that does 16d8 damage.

"You do this thing, you pay the money, and you keep your mouth shut, see? You don't wanna get called to see the boss. People who get called to see the boss, they don't come back, see? The boss has an appetite..."

"Yeah, that's right, I'm selling protection. We got some nasty fires that crop up in the summer months, and my boys, we keep lots of water pumped up and stored to put out those 'summer fires.' Here, let me put it another way; You got a real nice [farm, house, manor, village, castle] here. Be a shame if something wuz ta happen to it..."

"I know you need the money to cover the crop loss, Willy, and I can get the boss to cover your loss, but there's gonna be interest, and I don't gotta tell you what happens to people who don't repay the bosses loans *promptly* do I? You remember what happened to the Greene's mill? Yeah, that wasn't no 'freak storm.' Around these parts, lightning really can strike twice, if ya know what I'm sayin'..."

Pretty much any political intrigue or backroom dealing or mafia racket could even more easily be run by a multi-tonned lizard, sitting in a cave, entertaining a stream of flunkies who have been cowed into working for him (initially, although the most venal of them would end up loving working for the 'toughest guy on the block' and being recognized on the streets of their village or town as being untouchable, working for 'the boss'). Extortion, protection rackets, *actual protection* (from other monsters in the area), assassinations, various acts of sabotage or harassment, etc. A dragon would make one hell of a crime boss.

"Your Grace, the peasants in Hillsdale have gathered together tribute of, ahem, 75 gold pieces and a masterwork suit of plate, which they claim is all they could scrape together. They beseech your intervention in the matter of the Hobgoblin raids that have been destroying their crops, poaching their livestock and taking away prisoners for who knows what foul ends. They have thoughtfully provided this map showing the location of the so-called 'fort' in which these brutes are currently holed up."

"That 'fort' is built over some old Dwarven mines."

"I did not know that, your Grace."

"Of course not, your grandparents weren't born yet. Tell the sniveling weaklings that I accept the first half of their tribute, and that the Hobgoblins shall be dealt with. I expect the remainder of their debt to me to be paid at the end of the next growing season, or there shall be consequences."

"That seems exceedingly generous, great one..."

"The Hobgoblin raiders may well be using these captured villagers to work the mines, and there may be some value in claiming this site. Once I kill enough of them, the remaining Hobgoblins will be informed that they are operating within my territory, and that the local villages are part of my domain. Things should proceed smoothly. I will encourage them to take slaves from the other side of the forest, and keep the mines open..."

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

My first assumption is that these sorts of dragons will not be actively involved in the politics of the region. Being hunted by magic-using adversaries is not something that they would probably want. Therefore, most dragons will be solitary and prey on the fringes of society or just prey in the wild.

So, what that leaves us with are the rare dragons who have the drive/ambition/wisdom/etc. to succeed in civilized lands. Said dragon would know that having allied magic would be a benefit, so it would want to ally itself with a magic-using individual (I'm going to assume that dragons are still naturally resistant to magic, so direct spells probably don't concern them as much as spells which make physical confrontation easier). When I say "ally", I mean control. Low level kobolds or lizardfolk may suffice for this, since they are less likely to revolt.

These magic using minions would ideally have certain alarming, warding, dispelling and communication-type spells. Perhaps even a spell or two to help move around freely in human society (such as Alter Self). Standard survival needs for these minions would be met by the environment that they were already a part of, so nothing special needs to be present (at least not right away).

The dragon may also want allies amongst the humans. There are at least two feasible methods for this. The first, and most distasteful to the dragon, is to become friends with the villagers or whatnot. Save them from the goblins in the forest. Drive away the wolves preying on their sheep. Take care of the brigands in the foothills. This would backfire if the dragon showed its true colors and ambitions, but if done carefully, the dragon could turn the people against their rulers.

The other method is through fear. If the villagers made to fear the dragon enough, they may actively work to prevent heroes from hunting it. The last time that knights/hunters/adventurers/etc. went into the swamp looking for the dragon, not only was that group destroyed, but the villages crops were burned and some of their children eaten. They may not like it, but appeasing the dragon is far less risky than opposing it.

After that, the dragon will use its minions and servants to extend its influence. One day, it may challenge the kingdom...or it may just remain a powerful force of evil in the area...or it may eventually be defeated.

Without magic, the dragon can still be a very effective BBEG. Even without non-humans to use as servants, the dragon can move to step two and gain human minions (reluctant or not), but it is more difficult. It is true that more dragons may fail to become BBEGs without the magical support, but the ones that do are stronger for it (the rest either die or live outside civilized areas).

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

The dragon in the movie 'Dragonslayer' is a perfect model of how I see a powerful dragon working. He dominates the kingdom through terror; never mind spellcasting, he doesn't even need to speak to bend the puny mortals to his will!

I thought of this, too, but it doesn't emulate a world where the dragon's opposition may possess powerful magic. By 3.5e standards, the dragon should at least have some magic-using minions to help alleviate some of the power-gap. Its resistances and such will help so that it doesn't necessarily require an equal amount of magic, but it should have some. I think that exceptional (smart, wise, patient, lucky) dragons can still challenge without magic, but I don't think they could afford to be as open as Draco was in Dragonheart (knight ally or not).

 

[GreatLemur]

Watch any episode of the Sopranos. Imagine now that whoever the sleazy backroom negotiator is doesn't have a thug with a crowbar, but *does* have the ability to breath a cone of fire (lightning, acid, whatever) that does 16d8 damage.

Exactly. This thread is like asking "Human intrigue without magic possible?"

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

A noble house has an estate outside of a major city. Dragon flys in and "talks" to the lord of the family. Thing is, the dragon, being a frelling dragon, is a creature of majesty and awe. This is no mere monster with a high CR, this is a dragon. Its words rumble with the wisdom of ages long past. Its voice makes mortals quiver in fear and exhultation. Its gaze is almost hypnotic in its raw power.

The lord of the noble house is moved by the emotion he feels before this beast. He is enthralled, he is enticed, he is terrified and he is elated at the same time. Speaking to such a thing of unchained, elemental power is like having a religious experience.

He fears the devastating wrath the dragon could bring down simply flying overhead. Yet at the same time he yearns to serve this primal creature, this thing that was old when his grandfather was but a young lad. His greatest rapture, as well as his most henious fear, is to bask once more in the gaze of this awesome and terrible wyrm.

The dragon says he will use the noble. Will take from him, demand things from him. The noble will serve him. What the dragon wants the noble will comand his legions of hirelings and servants to do. And if --if-- the noble is worthy, then great rewards will be bestowed upon him.

A completely rational person would refuse. But people are never completely rational; they are moved by greed, by fear, by emotion. The noble in a way worships the dragon. He fears and he loves it in a way that messes with objective thought regarding the dragon. He is still in a position of power in the city, he is still in command of his house, but he has been seduced by the dark promises of the dragon.

As it flys away, the dragon is pleased with the situation. For the price of some occational assistance and a few successful diplomacy checks, he has gained control of one of the most powerful noble houses in the land. And a convenient patsy for all his plans.

Short form: people can be moved by emotions and feeling as opposed to purely rational thought. Using the force of its personality, a dragon can bring people under its sway. Control the head of an organization, and the whole organization becomes yours.

No magical compulsion, no tricks. Just a few successful diplomacy checks and giving NPCs real personality and failings.